8u HC ejected for arguing balls and strikes, throws clipboard at me, cops called

[catsbackr]

I stand corrected. I don’t do pro ball.


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[Thatsnotyou]

4 hours ago, catsbackr said:

Unless you end a statement to a coach with, "That's your warning", then it's not a warning.  The only version of a warning is "That's your warning."  Period.

The definition of a warning is:

"a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation."

A look over could be a warning. A stop sign could be a warning. A verbal "stop" could be a warning. A "that's enough" could be a warning. 

Your version of a warning is far from the only version of a warning.

[Mister B]

Best thing you can do is learn to ignore, especially if the coach is in the dugout. And call the inside strike. Games will finish quicker. As for me, I usually do record-keeping in between half innings, so if a coach comes up to me screaming. I'll finish what I'm doing, put my book away, look at the coach and say, "I'm sorry, I missed that, how can I help you?" Just stay calm. Most people won't know how to react. If you get one of the guys who likes to yell, just say, "We can discuss this when you are ready to do so in a mature manner." and walk away. If it's about the zone, explain, "Strikes and balls are a judgement call on my part." 

I worked the championship game of a middle schooler tournament. The last 2 innings, with his team down by more than 6, the first base coach decided that my zone was too wide outside. And he let me know it. I chose to ignore him. Earlier in the game the peanut gallery was saying, "He's been calling that a strike all day, you gotta hit that." Then it got nasty when the coach started up. I just ignored it and went on my way. The game ended with the losing team at bat, bases loaded, full count. Pitch went right over the outside edge of the plate. Batter didn't swing and I rung him up. As I was walking off the field, I heard, "Hey blue, you are a fu**ing piece of sh*t!" Followed by one of the parents from the winning team scrambling over the bleachers saying, "We don't appreciate that language in front of our kids, so keep your mouth shut!" I thought it might come to blows, but I didn't wait to find out. After the game, the UIC who watched the game from behind the backstop, told me that he thought I called a damn good game. I was consistent and kept my cool. 

On the other hand, the coaches from the opposite team were great. Head coach was polite, when we had an issue with a courtesy runner, I explained that he would be called out and he said, that's fine, it's my fault. Third out with runners on 1 and 2. ( he didn't put in the last out, batting the roster)

I had one of their batters ask for time, with the pitcher set. I granted it the first time. Then he did it again and claimed the pitcher balked. The pitcher hadn't come set yet. Then he did it again, with the pitcher set and I told him to stay in the box. He swung and missed, on the next pitch he was so upset that he let it go by and he got rung. He walked off the field yelling at the coach, that I wouldn't give him time. The coach looked at him and said, "He doesn't have to grant you time." Made me smile. 

[LRZ]

Ignoring this kind of behavior may work for you, Mister B, but I would never recommend it to a new or young umpire. I do agree with one thing you said: stay calm. I would have calmly ejected the coach.

What a lesson for MS kids: you can act like a jerk and curse, and there are no consequences. First, bitching about the strike zone, then, it gets "nasty," and then obscenity. So, the coach's conduct escalated, wouldn't you agree? A better lesson, IMO: act like a jerk and you get an early exit.

 

[flyingron]

We need to be good examples on the field regardless of how the coaches, parents, or players behave.    Allowing yourself to get riled up indicates a disposition that is at odds with umpiring.   Frankly, if as a coach/parent I found an umpire "packing" because he's afraid he might have to defend his actions, I'm taking my kids out of there and making a strong protest with the league.

 

 

[lawump]

Not that anyone asked, here's my two cents (both as an umpire who was nicknamed "Mr. Red Ass" by his classmates at umpire school and as an assignor of high school umpires).

1.  There are not enough ejections in amateur baseball.  I get very tired of a lot of umpires complaining about the behavior of coaches (and my umpires (that I assign) will complain to me about coaches all year long), but then when a coach commits a serious transgression in a game they don't eject him.  When I ask why they didn't eject, they then give me excuses such as "I didn't want to write a report," or "it was late in the game and I just wanted to get out of there," etc., etc., etc.  Frankly, it really ticks me off as an assignor.   For example, this year alone, I saw a player spike his helmet in disgust at an umpire's call on a play at the plate and multiple high school coaches leave their dugout and come toward home plate yelling at the plate umpire about balls and strikes...and not a darn thing was done to any of them.  We as umpires cannot complain about game participants behavior if we're going to tolerate it.  There are a lot of us who need to take care of business when faced with unsporting behavior, or otherwise stop complaining about it.

2. Unless the game participant engages in conduct that deserves an immediate ejection without warning (for instance, if the first words out of a coach's mouth is, "you're F*#King horrible!"), I tell my guys, "to get your warning in."  For instance, if a coach is arguing balls and strikes (without using any magic words) we don't want to eject without having first warned (and restricted in high school).    

3.  Outside of professional baseball, we need to use the word "warning" when giving the warning.  In pro baseball, extending one's arm, holding out the palm of one's hand toward the offender, and saying "that's enough!" is sufficient to constitute a warning.  In amateur baseball, we must use the word "warning" (this is even in Rule 2 of the NCAA rulebook).  I tell my guys to say, "This is your warning.  If you continue to argue you are going to be restricted and/or ejected."  It is a simple enough statement to memorize, and, furthermore, this language is unmistakable when issued to a coach/player.  I have never had our state association overturn an ejection after such a warning was given to a coach.  Their position is that once such a warning is given, the coach should stop talking completely or risk being ejected...even if they end up being ejected for something that may not have been "ejection worthy" had a warning not been previously issued.  In other words, when a coach complains to the state that he didn't say anything worthy of being ejected, the state comes back and tells the coach "you were warned and restricted which means you should have stopped talking completely or you risk being ejected, period."  And I LOVE my state association for taking this position.  They simply will not "overturn" an ejection if the game participant had been warned.

4.  Warnings work.  Especially higher up in amateur baseball.  In fact, most times an NCAA head coach just wants to have his complaints acknowledged...he's not aiming to be ejected.  This is a true story:  I was working a Division 1 game on the plate.  Frankly, I was having a very good balls-and-strikes game, but the home team was getting hammered late in the game.  In the bottom of the 8th, the head coach decided to go down the far end of the dugout and start yelling at my partner at first base complaining that the other team's pitcher was balking.  He kept going and going and going...and my partner wouldn't do anything.  Frankly, I was becoming very annoyed (he was ruining my rhythm!), but I wasn't going to do anything about it because (1) I wasn't the crew chief and (2) my partner was a Division 1 umpire who needs to handle his own crap if he's working at that level.  Anyways, the head coach finally came down to the home plate end of the dugout and yelled out at me, "there's nothing stopping you from calling it!".  I was soooooo happy that he did that.  I promptly took off my mask, looked at him and said, "this is your warning.  If you continue to argue you are going to be ejected!".  He looked at me, threw up his hands, and said "thank you!"  He then sat down and never said another word the rest of the day.  The moral of the story was he just wanted to know that his complaints were being heard and acknowledged.  This type of reaction from an NCAA head coach happened multiple times during my career.  I had a Division 2 head coach who almost always complimented me after a game.  But, he could NEVER get through a game without having to receive a balls and strikes warning.  I'd give him the warning, he'd crack a smile and give me a little wave from the dugout, and on we went.  And, usually, after each game he'd go out of his way to say "good job" (or something similar) as I was leaving the field.  He just honestly believed that each game he had to make sure that the umpires knew he was watching them.  It became quite humorous.  

Well, I guess that's more than two cents.  

Oh, and for the love of God...call the inside strike.  It will speed up your games significantly and you will score very highly on an evaluation if you are being evaluated by someone who knows what they're doing.  

 

[JonnyCat]

57 minutes ago, lawump said:

1.  There are not enough ejections in amateur baseball.  I get very tired of a lot of umpires complaining about the behavior of coaches (and my umpires (that I assign) will complain to me about coaches all year long), but then when a coach commits a serious transgression in a game they don't eject him.  When I ask why they didn't eject, they then give me excuses such as "I didn't want to write a report," or "it was late in the game and I just wanted to get out of there," etc., etc., etc.  Frankly, it really ticks me off as an assignor.   For example, this year alone, I saw a player spike his helmet in disgust at an umpire's call on a play at the plate and multiple high school coaches leave their dugout and come toward home plate yelling at the plate umpire about balls and strikes...and not a darn thing was done to any of them.  We as umpires cannot complain about game participants behavior if we're going to tolerate it.  There are a lot of us who need to take care of business when faced with unsporting behavior, or otherwise stop complaining about it.

THIS!!!! 100%!!!

In my HS association we have so much bad behavior from so many coaches (and it bleeds to the players and fans), it makes me want to walk away. All because most of the umpires in our association don't want to eject, and don't eject enough. Why? The usual litany of reasons lawump described. But even more so in our association, we have an archaic scratch list that coaches can bar up to 5 umpires per season. Therefore, many of our member don't want to "upset" the coaches for fear of getting on the list and losing games, therefore losing money. That's the main reason. There are plenty of others, but this post will get too long.

So what's the effect in our area? Yep, A$$hole coaches that get away with nearly everything. They say almost whatever they want and not ever be held accountable.

I even had a board member, yes a board member, tell me that an assistant coach while walking to the 3rd base coaching box before the first pitch, called him an A-hole. He was the PU. Didn't dump him. True story. I asked why? Said he was shocked. SMFH!

Our association just empowers these jerks and they run roughshod over the majority of umpires. The no dump attitude is pervasive in the association.

Gee, no wonder there is a shortage of sports officials.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, lawump said:

4.  Warnings work.  Especially higher up in amateur baseball.  In fact, most times an NCAA head coach just wants to have his complaints acknowledged...he's not aiming to be ejected.  This is a true story:  I was working a Division 1 game on the plate.  Frankly, I was having a very good balls-and-strikes game, but the home team was getting hammered late in the game.  In the bottom of the 8th, the head coach decided to go down the far end of the dugout and start yelling at my partner at first base complaining that the other team's pitcher was balking.  He kept going and going and going...and my partner wouldn't do anything.  Frankly, I was becoming very annoyed (he was ruining my rhythm!), but I wasn't going to do anything about it because (1) I wasn't the crew chief and (2) my partner was a Division 1 umpire who needs to handle his own crap if he's working at that level.  Anyways, the head coach finally came down to the home plate end of the dugout and yelled out at me, "there's nothing stopping you from calling it!".  I was soooooo happy that he did that.  I promptly took off my mask, looked at him and said, "this is your warning.  If you continue to argue you are going to be ejected!".  He looked at me, threw up his hands, and said "thank you!"  He then sat down and never said another word the rest of the day.  The moral of the story was he just wanted to know that his complaints were being heard and acknowledged.  This type of reaction from an NCAA head coach happened multiple times during my career.  I had a Division 2 head coach who almost always complimented me after a game.  But, he could NEVER get through a game without having to receive a balls and strikes warning.  I'd give him the warning, he'd crack a smile and give me a little wave from the dugout, and on we went.  And, usually, after each game he'd go out of his way to say "good job" (or something similar) as I was leaving the field.  He just honestly believed that each game he had to make sure that the umpires knew he was watching them.  It became quite humorous.

To add to this:

When you get to the college game, coaches are likely to test you when you get to D3. They will probably test you when you get to D2. They will definitely test you when you get to D1. This is intentional. They know that they are the mouthpieces for their kids' gripes and concerns, and they want to know if you know what you're doing. The warning not only tells them that you know where to draw a line (and that they can get up to that point,) it also shows their teams that their coach's complaints have been heard. If you let too much go before warning, they will be under the impression that they have to be more egregious to get your attention. If you go straight to ejection in a warning situation, it means that they might as well get their piece in immediately since they're getting tossed anyway--even if it was the other side that got penalized. Nothing makes participants more nervous about an umpire than unpredictability, whether it be in their calls or their game management.

[agdz59]

8 minutes ago, Matt said:

To add to this:

When you get to the college game, coaches are likely to test you when you get to D3. They will probably test you when you get to D2. They will definitely test you when you get to D1. This is intentional. They know that they are the mouthpieces for their kids' gripes and concerns, and they want to know if you know what you're doing. The warning not only tells them that you know where to draw a line (and that they can get up to that point,) it also shows their teams that their coach's complaints have been heard. If you let too much go before warning, they will be under the impression that they have to be more egregious to get your attention. If you go straight to ejection in a warning situation, it means that they might as well get their piece in immediately since they're getting tossed anyway--even if it was the other side that got penalized. Nothing makes participants more nervous about an umpire than unpredictability, whether it be in their calls or their game management.

Good insight. Thank you.

[clasonater]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:55 PM, catsbackr said:

Last thing and I won’t offer anything else on this topic, don’t talk so much, listen, respond briefly, warn, eject, move on.

Silence can’t be misinterpreted.


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This ^^^^^^ all the way.  We have warnings for a reason, "i don't care" would have been it.  "This is your warning" is all you need to say.  

[smoyer]

If I where you,I would just start umpiring at LL majors level That is what I do.Anything younger I leave alone.That 8u has enough trouble throwing down the middle let alone the corners.That is just my opinion.Do not let an incident like this give you ideas of giving up umping.

[Vegas_Ump]

Warn for arguing judgement calls.  (Non-negotiable!)  Then eject.  Suspend the game until the ejection is complied with.  Then let the League deal with it. 

I often apply Rule 11.03(g) when necessary.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[aaluck]

On 6/9/2021 at 3:01 PM, lawump said:

.  There are not enough ejections in amateur baseball.  I get very tired of a lot of umpires complaining about the behavior of coaches (and my umpires (that I assign) will complain to me about coaches all year long), but then when a coach commits a serious transgression in a game they don't eject him. 

This IS a true statement.  I'm not saying go in there looking for a fight.  You don't have to, in 75% of the games someone is going to 'ask' to be ejected, oblige them.  I'm so sick and tired of 'peacekeepers'. These guys simply move the problem to the next guy.  The last coach I ejected was absolutely shocked I actually did it--he was so used to saying whatever he wanted.

[blue23ll]

Personally, when I do 'daddy ball' I don't warn. I eject, and eject, and eject....eventually they will learn or it will be very very quiet

 

[johnnyg08]

The sheer thought of having umpires on games where the players are 8...blows my mind...and I bet it was an "elite" team too...

 

 

[johnnyg08]

On 6/9/2021 at 3:01 PM, lawump said:

1.  There are not enough ejections in amateur baseball. 

Right here. 

[johnnyg08]

On 6/9/2021 at 3:01 PM, lawump said:

4.  Warnings work.

In some cases, yes. 

But post warning...the umpire must be ready to take care of business in the event, the warning has fallen on deaf ears. And not all conduct deserves a warning. But yes, I understand you post. 

[maven]

Was there a critical reason to revive this corpse?

[LRZ]

A reminder? The lesson is ALWAYS timely.

 

[johnnyg08]

9 hours ago, maven said:

Was there a critical reason to revive this corpse?

Opening day!! 

[johnnyg08]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:13 PM, JonnyCat said:

I even had a board member, yes a board member, tell me that an assistant coach while walking to the 3rd base coaching box before the first pitch, called him an A-hole.

UGH....