Time?

[MT73]

Board says I am wrong so——

OBR

2 OUTS R2&R3

Ground ball to SS

He bobbles it and R3 scores.

‘They then  tag R2 out before he reaches 3rd.

‘I say the run scores.

‘They say it does not.

Who is correct?

[KenBAZ]

Ask yourself, was the 3rd out recorded before the batter runner reach first base safely?

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[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, KenBAZ said:

Ask yourself, was the 3rd out recorded before the batter runner reach first base safely?

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Huh? 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, KenBAZ said:

Ask yourself, was the 3rd out recorded before the batter runner reach first base safely?

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Hold on.... there’s no play on BR. ....R2 R3. R3 crossed the plate before the tag on R2. 
 

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: 

 

a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base

 

There’s no play on BR. BR is not the third out before reaching 1b. The tag on r2 is a time play. Score the run 

[MT73]

Thanks!

[Velho]

But [entering hypothetical scenario]...

If there was R3, R2, R1 and 2 outs, F6 tagging R2 after R3 scores would be a force and the run would not count. Correct?

[agdz59]

35 minutes ago, Velho said:

But [entering hypothetical scenario]...

If there was R3, R2, R1 and 2 outs, F6 tagging R2 after R3 scores would be a force and the run would not count. Correct?

Correct. 

[flyingron]

Yep, in the latter (bases loaded) case, F2 is forced and  he can be put out either by being tagged or stepping on third.

The common misconception is that force is an out caused by stepping on the bag alone, which unfortunately erroneously includes appeals and a batter put out at first, and omits tagging forced runners.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, MT73 said:

Board says I am wrong so——

OBR

2 OUTS R2&R3

Ground ball to SS

He bobbles it and R3 scores.

‘They then  tag R2 out before he reaches 3rd.

‘I say the run scores.

‘They say it does not.

Who is correct?

Did BR continue to first?  Did the defense put him out after R2 was out?

 

What reasoning did the board give for their decision that the run did not score?

[SH0102]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Did BR continue to first?  Did the defense put him out after R2 was out?

 

What reasoning did the board give for their decision that the run did not score?

The rule says if the third out is made

ON THE BATTER-RUNNER BEFORE REACHING FIRST.

If the third out is made on another runner, the only question is what that runner forced to run or not.  If not, then it’s a time play on the run 

[SH0102]

Just now, SH0102 said:

The rule says if the third out is made

ON THE BATTER-RUNNER BEFORE REACHING FIRST.

If the third out is made on another runner, the only question is what that runner forced to run or not.  If not, then it’s a time play on the run 

And the time is not based on the batter reaching first, it’s on the runner crossing home

[noumpere]

10 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

The rule says if the third out is made

ON THE BATTER-RUNNER BEFORE REACHING FIRST.

If the third out is made on another runner, the only question is what that runner forced to run or not.  If not, then it’s a time play on the run 

 

10 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

And the time is not based on the batter reaching first, it’s on the runner crossing home

I agree.  That's not what I asked.

 

What if after tagging R2, the defense throws to first (and F3 touches the base ....) before BR reaches first?  Does the run now count?

 

Yes, there's an answer -- but I don't think seeing-eye dog will find it in the black and white of the rule book. 

[Velho]

8 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Correct. 

 

1 hour ago, flyingron said:

Yep, in the latter (bases loaded) case, F2 is forced and  he can be put out either by being tagged or stepping on third.

The common misconception is that force is an out caused by stepping on the bag alone, which unfortunately erroneously includes appeals and a batter put out at first, and omits tagging forced runners.

This is a subtly that is lost on many.

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

I agree.  That's not what I asked.

 

What if after tagging R2, the defense throws to first (and F3 touches the base ....) before BR reaches first?  Does the run now count?

 

Yes, there's an answer -- but I don't think seeing-eye dog will find it in the black and white of the rule book. 

Yes, the run still counts.  The tag was the third out.  The "advantageous fourth out" can only occur on appeal plays.

SO ... just to keep twisting this lemon ... R3 scores, R2 gets in a rundown, BR misses first base heading to second during the run down, then R2 is tagged out.  Defense can appeal the missed first base and the run would NOT score.

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Yes, the run still counts.  The tag was the third out.  The "advantageous fourth out" can only occur on appeal plays.

SO ... just to keep twisting this lemon ... R3 scores, R2 gets in a rundown, BR misses first base heading to second during the run down, then R2 is tagged out.  Defense can appeal the missed first base and the run would NOT score.

Last I remember NCAA and FED would let you get that advantageous fourth out on the batter-runner. OBR per Wendelstedt would not. 

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Last I remember NCAA and FED would let you get that advantageous fourth out on the batter-runner. OBR per Wendelstedt would not. 

I will admit that I did not know that ... biting my tongue on the rest of that for now.  😉

 

OK, didn't bite for long ... here is the OBR wording from 5.09(c)(4):

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or Clubhouse.

What does Wendelstedt say that overrules this seemingly easy to read rule?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I will admit that I did not know that ... biting my tongue on the rest of that for now.  😉

 

OK, didn't bite for long ... here is the OBR wording from 5.09(c)(4):

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or Clubhouse.

What does Wendelstedt say that overrules this seemingly easy to read rule?

The fourth play on the BR is not an appeal per wendelstedt. It’s just a play which doesn’t matter because the third out ended the inning. 

[Velho]

I’m no baseball rules scholar and new to the Wendlestedt, J/R etc. aspects so bear with me...

Isn’t Wendlestedt to fill in the cracks and gaps in the stated rules?

Taking what @The Man in Blue and @Jimurray say as accurate, OBR seems clear so why does Wendestedt’s opinion matter in this case?

[Senor Azul]

All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15)—this is what Mr. Jimurray was referring to…

Play 2-3:  R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3…

Wendelstedt:  Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

Here’s the official interpretation for FED:

Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out.

[The Man in Blue]

That BRD citation does not say what was initially asserted.

In my hypothetical extension I had an appeal on a BR who missed first base. Wendelstedt confirmed that play is an advantageous fourth out.  The play presented in the BRD was on a runner who had not reached first base yet.  So, as I stated initially, an advantageous fourth out cannot happen on a routine play, only on an appeal.

I’m not sure I agree with the Hopkins Fed interpretation though.  He is saying the defense could continue with the routine play for the advantageous fourth out.  I’ll have to dig into the NFHS book a little more tomorrow.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

I’m no baseball rules scholar and new to the Wendlestedt, J/R etc. aspects so bear with me...

Isn’t Wendlestedt to fill in the cracks and gaps in the stated rules?

Taking what @The Man in Blue and @Jimurray say as accurate, OBR seems clear so why does Wendestedt’s opinion matter in this case?

We have books to sell, young man!

😉

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

That BRD citation does not say what was initially asserted.

In my hypothetical extension I had an appeal on a BR who missed first base. Wendelstedt confirmed that play is an advantageous fourth out.  The play presented in the BRD was on a runner who had not reached first base yet.  So, as I stated initially, an advantageous fourth out cannot happen on a routine play, only on an appeal.

I’m not sure I agree with the Hopkins Fed interpretation though.  He is saying the defense could continue with the routine play for the advantageous fourth out.  I’ll have to dig into the NFHS book a little more tomorrow.

 

 

I was referencing you saying the run would count in @noumpere hypothetical. FED and NCAA rule it would not if the defense got a fourth out on the batter before he got to 1B. I don’t agree but I think they both still allow that out. 

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/6/2021 at 8:34 AM, Jimurray said:

I was referencing you saying the run would count in @noumpere hypothetical. FED and NCAA rule it would not if the defense got a fourth out on the batter before he got to 1B. I don’t agree but I think they both still allow that out. 

Since I put all the work in a new thread, I'm just going to copy and paste this over here, too.  Maybe these need to be merged?

Copied from 

Again, I disagree that FED and/or NCAA allow the fourth out to come on a force out/"BR not making it to first base" out.

2-20-2

ART. 2 . . . A half-inning is the interval during which one team is on offense (batting) and the other is on defense (fielding). A half-inning ends when there is a third out or when, in the last inning, the winning run is scored. In either case, if there is a delayed out declared by the umpire for a baserunning infraction, a possible fourth out may be recognized (9-1-1d, e).

9-1-1d,e

d. when a third out is declared during a play resulting from a valid defensive appeal, which results in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or

e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman.

8-2-6i

i. Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out.

So ... NO ... NFHS does NOT allow a fourth out outside of a valid defensive appeal.

How about NCAA?  They only mention a fourth out in two places: 8-6-7 and 8-6-9.  8-6-9, in and of itself, does NOT pertain to the fourth out (this rule is about the third out on appeal) but it has a note that references the fourth out. 

8-6-7

7) If there are two or more appeals during a play, which could make a total of “four outs” in an inning, the defensive team may choose to take any out it desires.

8-6-9

9) If there are two outs before the appeal on a runner, the appeal becoming the third out, no runners following the appealed out shall score, and if the appeal is a force out, no runners preceding or following the appealed out shall score (see Rule 2 – Force Play). Note: If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order unless it is an advantageous “fourth out” appeal.

So, NO, it does not appear NCAA permits a fourth out on a force out either.

As @Rich Ives said above, a batter runner has no obligation to keep running after the third out is called.  To claim that his/her failure to keep running to first is "missing a base" or other dereliction of base running duties which could become an appeal play is absolutely absurd.