Are Some Calls Just Too Big To Overrule?

[isired]

My son had a playoff game today, FED rules (though I don't think that matters) - he's up with R2 and one out, hits a fly ball that F8 has to go back to catch, R2 tags - I'm directly behind home plate so see it clearly, and the runner left a split second after the catch. BU, who is in C, is running towards 3B on the infield grass, looking back over his shoulder towards CF. R2 tags up and reaches safely, DHC yells "he left early!" and on appeal BU rings him up.
 
There is no chance he saw the runner leave early. I know this because he didn't leave early - I was video-ing my son's AB and happened to have the perfect angle from behind home through 2B. And I don't think he could have thought he saw him leave early, because from where he was at the catch, his head is turned enough to see F8 probably but not R2. I've attached frames, but the video is much clearer - you can track the ball into F8's glove, then shift your eyes to R2 who is just then starting to move his arms and then his foot off the base.
 
IMO the DHC stole the call. I understamd calls get blown, I've blown calls. But I can't understand calling something you don't see. Seen coaches and fans yell "he left early" hundreds of times on tag ups, never seen an umpire make the call based on that. And I'm not even saying "he cost us the game!" - we lost 1-0, the runner would have been on 3rd with 2 out, new pitcher and B6 up, no guarantee we even treble alone eventually win.
 
But here's my Q. The PU had the same angle I did (from the photos). The OHC went out and asked the BU what he saw, then they brought the PU out. He was looking through the infield at a good angle, so should have seen that R2 didn't leave early. Why wouldn't he overrule? Likely he just didn't see it? Or is it just etiquette not to do that on a call that was a big play? Are some calls just too 'big' to overrule?

[Rich Ives]

49 minutes ago, isired said:

 

My son had a playoff game today, FED rules (though I don't think that matters) - he's up with R2 and one out, hits a fly ball that F8 has to go back to catch, R2 tags - I'm directly behind home plate so see it clearly, and the runner left a split second after the catch. BU, who is in C, is running towards 3B on the infield grass, looking back over his shoulder towards CF. R2 tags up and reaches safely, DHC yells "he left early!" and on appeal BU rings him up.

 

There is no chance he saw the runner leave early. I know this because he didn't leave early - I was video-ing my son's AB and happened to have the perfect angle from behind home through 2B. And I don't think he could have thought he saw him leave early, because from where he was at the catch, his head is turned enough to see F8 probably but not R2. I've attached frames, but the video is much clearer - you can track the ball into F8's glove, then shift your eyes to R2 who is just then starting to move his arms and then his foot off the base.

 

IMO the DHC stole the call. I understamd calls get blown, I've blown calls. But I can't understand calling something you don't see. Seen coaches and fans yell "he left early" hundreds of times on tag ups, never seen an umpire make the call based on that. And I'm not even saying "he cost us the game!" - we lost 1-0, the runner would have been on 3rd with 2 out, new pitcher and B6 up, no guarantee we even treble alone eventually win.

 

But here's my Q. The PU had the same angle I did (from the photos). The OHC went out and asked the BU what he saw, then they brought the PU out. He was looking through the infield at a good angle, so should have seen that R2 didn't leave early. Why wouldn't he overrule? Likely he just didn't see it? Or is it just etiquette not to do that on a call that was a big play? Are some calls just too 'big' to overrule?

 

No umpire an overrule another.   There's a rule that says they cannot. No etiquette involved. 

Advice can be given but the umpire making the call has to listen to it and if he accepts it change his call on his own.

[isired]

No umpire an overrule another.   There's a rule that says they cannot. No etiquette involved. 
Advice can be given but the umpire making the call has to listen to it and if he accepts it change his call on his own.

OK. I've seen, in practice, a PU change a call but I guess it was with the BU's permission. I didn't think that they were going to change it, but I didn't know that they couldn't. Didn't think it was even the BU's call the way he was running with his back to R2. Just bad luck I guess.

[Kevin_K]

That call belongs to U1. As you have indicated, the concern is the positioning he adopted to make an anticipated call at 3B.

One of the principles beaten into my head when I started umpiring was that I should be still whenever I needed to make a call. Instructors have repeatedly referenced the idea of a camera needing to be motionless when capturing an image. In the haste to get to the 3B cutout, U1 abandoned his responsibility to see the catch/tag up sequence properly. I would have a hard time accepting any justification from any partner about them being on the move for this part of the play. If U1 moved toward 3B as the ball was in flight, he could have come set at the time of the catch and then continued moving once the ball touched F8s glove.

NFHS rules allow for the PU to be the umpire in chief, but specifically curb his authority when it comes to decisions on situations "commonly reserved for the field umpire." (10.2.1)

Some umpires are more open to receiving and using information than others. Perhaps this  U1 was less than receptive. Perhaps PU did not see the catch/tag. Perhaps U1 blinked at a bad time. Sometimes umpires just kick a call. Or, as you said @isired, it could just be bad luck.

[SH0102]

In my opinion, there is no excuse for a HS tournament umpire to have this positioning.  I would expect this at a youth game or maybe freshman level.

On a fly ball, umpire should have runner and fielder making the catch lined up in his vision.

There are some spots where it is tougher than others in 2-man to line it up great, but dead center is not one of them.

And as an aside, I try very hard to get all calls correct, but there are calls you have to be 100% on to make, and leaving early is one of them.  In this case, based on positioning, there’s no way he could be 100% certain he left early

[SH0102]

As for the HPU, he actually is in poor position as well.  Why is he heading towards third? There is zero situations where he has a call at third.  Who saw your son touch first ?  What is ball was dropped in CF and F3 obstructed your son?

I am okay with two sets of eyes on ball for a second on a screamer the fielder is diving at, but not a can of corn to center.

 

[isired]

Thanks for the well thought-out responses, much appreciated.

[LRZ]

The first problem was not that U1 was moving, but that he was moving to the wrong position. His first move should have been to the working area, where he could line up F8 and R2 (as SHO102 pointed out), then let the throw/play take him where he needed to be. By moving towards third, he took himself out of position if the runner bluffed and retreated to second, with a throw to second. That is, he over-anticipated a play at third. As a consequence, he had to turn and thus lost sight of R2.

The second element is this: if you don't see something, the default is "safe." If, for whatever reason, U1 didn't see R2 leave early, he shouldn't have called him out. If U1 did see R2, then it was just a judgment call, or more appropriately, given the evidence, misjudgment.

[beerguy55]

If you don't see something, you can't call it...he "should" have ruled safe, assuming he truly didn't see anything.   In all likelihood, he saw movement in his peripheral vision.  I'm guessing he at least saw SOMETHING.  As far as the PU...if it was as close as you say it was what's he gonna say? "It looked to me like he left a split-second after the catch".  At that point it's kind of like instant replay, isn't it?   Is that enough info for BU to change his original call?   A split second in real time equates to any bang-bang play at any bag.   To me the second umpire would have to give some kind of information that CLEARLY indicates the original call was mistaken...this play sounds/looks too close to do that.

[isired]

If you don't see something, you can't call it...he "should" have ruled safe, assuming he truly didn't see anything.   In all likelihood, he saw movement in his peripheral vision.  I'm guessing he at least saw SOMETHING.  As far as the PU...if it was as close as you say it was what's he gonna say? "It looked to me like he left a split-second after the catch".  At that point it's kind of like instant replay, isn't it?   Is that enough info for BU to change his original call?   A split second in real time equates to any bang-bang play at any bag.   To me the second umpire would have to give some kind of information that CLEARLY indicates the original call was mistaken...this play sounds/looks too close to do that.

I think the runner, if doing it correctly, always leaves a split second after the catch, no? It was a textbook tag up, nothing special, on the video you have time to focus on the catch and then shift your focus to second base and see the runner just start to pump his right arm, after the catch,, and then take a step.

Given what I learned here, if I was the PU and saw the tag up clearly, I would have told the BU that I saw him on the bag as the ball was caught and let him decide what to do.

[aaluck]

1 hour ago, isired said:

Thanks for the well thought-out responses, much appreciated.

How many in the crew? Not trying to take up for the blown call but when these high school associations try to save money with a two man crew...you get what you pay for.

[isired]

How many in the crew? Not trying to take up for the blown call but when these high school associations try to save money with a two man crew...you get what you pay for.

2 man crew. I hear you.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, isired said:

 

I think the runner, if doing it correctly, always leaves a split second after the catch, no? It was a textbook tag up, nothing special, on the video you have time to focus on the catch and then shift your focus to second base and see the runner just start to pump his right arm, after the catch,, and then take a step.

Given what I learned here, if I was the PU and saw the tag up clearly, I would have told the BU that I saw him on the bag as the ball was caught and let him decide what to do.

I equate it to a rolling vs full stop at a stop sign...the cop can see if your wheels are still turning or not...you can stop for an instant...or you can stop and wait a beat...the closer you cut it, the more chance you get a ticket.

Same here...most runners wait a beat, to be sure...the closer they cut it, the bigger the chance that it looks like they left early.  The closer they cut it the more chance they actually do leave early.  And, the closer they cut it, the harder it is to make the call...baserunners that cut this too close basically ensure they have an 50/50 chance of being called out.   There's some risk/reward in how close you cut it (or intentionally leave early)...but honestly, if you really NEED that 1/8 second head start to make sure you're safe at the next base, trying to advance may not be the right move.

[isired]

I equate it to a rolling vs full stop at a stop sign...the cop can see if your wheels are still turning or not...you can stop for an instant...or you can stop and wait a beat...the closer you cut it, the more chance you get a ticket.
Same here...most runners wait a beat, to be sure...the closer they cut it, the bigger the chance that it looks like they left early.  The closer they cut it the more chance they actually do leave early.  And, the closer they cut it, the harder it is to make the call...baserunners that cut this too close basically ensure they have an 50/50 chance of being called out.   There's some risk/reward in how close you cut it (or intentionally leave early)...but honestly, if you really NEED that 1/8 second head start to make sure you're safe at the next base, trying to advance may not be the right move.

Can't agree with having a player wait longer than necessary, nor that tagging correctly gives you a 50/50 chance of being called out on appeal. You leave when the ball is on the fielder's glove. And if you do, you should never be called out on appeal - because no one could say that they clearly saw you leave early.

[aaluck]

45 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

And, the closer they cut it, the harder it is to make the call...baserunners that cut this too close basically ensure they have an 50/50 chance of being called out.   There's some risk/reward in how close you cut it (or intentionally leave early)...but honestly, if you really NEED that 1/8 second head start to make sure you're safe at the next base, trying to advance may not be the right move.

So basically you're saying that the burden is on the baserunner to ensure the UMPIRE makes the right call?  Should the baserunner make eye contact with the ump to make sure he is looking? How about wait for a thumbs up from the umpire? Maybe we should just make a new mechanic that we holler GO when the catch is made.

The baserunner's job is to watch the catch and run thereafter. Nothing more, nothing less.

24 minutes ago, isired said:

Can't agree with having a player wait longer than necessary, nor that tagging correctly gives you a 50/50 chance of being called out on appeal.

True statement.  Everyone has a job to do and the baserunner's is not to make sure the umpire gets the call right.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

How many in the crew? Not trying to take up for the blown call but when these high school associations try to save money with a two man crew...you get what you pay for.

I'm going to borrow a quote from another person here...they use 2-umpire crews through AA. Let's not use that as a crutch. I understand the disparity in average skill level between those umpires and HS umpires, but this is a function of training, not the number of umpires.

[maven]

The following recommendation to umpires concerns appeals generally, not the play in the OP. I don't see video posted in the thread, so I'm not in a position to assess the umpire's judgment call. 

People make this harder than it has to be. The purpose of the retouch appeal is to slow down the runners and give the defense the opportunity to play on their advance. 

Don't grant an appeal unless it's obvious to everyone—even maybe some who weren't looking at the runner!—that he left early. His coach should be in his ear even before you grant the appeal, because he knows his runner left early. That's the one you want to grant. Deny the others.

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, aaluck said:

So basically you're saying that the burden is on the baserunner to ensure the UMPIRE makes the right call?  Should the baserunner make eye contact with the ump to make sure he is looking? How about wait for a thumbs up from the umpire? Maybe we should just make a new mechanic that we holler GO when the catch is made.

The baserunner's job is to watch the catch and run thereafter. Nothing more, nothing less.

True statement.  Everyone has a job to do and the baserunner's is not to make sure the umpire gets the call right.

 

1 hour ago, isired said:

Can't agree with having a player wait longer than necessary, nor that tagging correctly gives you a 50/50 chance of being called out on appeal. You leave when the ball is on the fielder's glove. And if you do, you should never be called out on appeal - because no one could say that they clearly saw you leave early.

Well guys, anyone who has actually played and/or coached the game at a meaningful level for any length of time knows I speak truly.  And the advice I give any player is ignored at their own peril.   If you're not aware, as a player, that umps are human you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I didn't say the baserunner's job is to make sure the umpire gets the call right - that's a childish disingenuous interpretation...it may work in your high school debate class but it doesn't work here.  The baserunner's job IS, in part, to not do ANYTHING that could give an ump reason/pause to make a call that hurts the team.

It's quite simple, the closer you make any play, the more likely you're not going to get the call you want.   Umps are human...and at some point, when talking about hundredths of seconds, and fractions of inches, the ump's call is a coin flip.  Don't create coin flips you don't have to.   When you try to time yourself to leave the base the instant the ball is touched, you're creating a coin flip.  Wait a beat.

 

It's the same principle as teaching a two strike approach...anything close you gotta swing...otherwise, you may as well just flip a coin for ball/strike.

[isired]

Well guys, anyone who has actually played and/or coached the game at a meaningful level for any length of time knows I speak truly.  And the advice I give any player is ignored at their own peril.   If you're not aware, as a player, that umps are human you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
I didn't say the baserunner's job is to make sure the umpire gets the call right - that's a childish disingenuous interpretation...it may work in your high school debate class but it doesn't work here.  The baserunner's job IS, in part, to not do ANYTHING that could give an ump reason/pause to make a call that hurts the team.
It's quite simple, the closer you make any play, the more likely you're not going to get the call you want.   Umps are human...and at some point, when talking about hundredths of seconds, and fractions of inches, the ump's call is a coin flip.  Don't create coin flips you don't have to.   When you try to time yourself to leave the base the instant the ball is touched, you're creating a coin flip.  Wait a beat.
 
It's the same principle as teaching a two strike approach...anything close you gotta swing...otherwise, you may as well just flip a coin for ball/strike.

This isn't really a matter of being human. He couldn't see R2, could barely see F8. If the runner waits another full second, that's not going to change. The DHC is still going to yell "he left early!" And the umpire is still going to he calling a play he didn't see.

Played for 12 years spring and summer, coached for another dozen, umpired for 6, never heard anyone tell me or any player to wait longer than necessary. And never saw that advice hurt a team until yesterday.

[Replacematt]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Well guys, anyone who has actually played and/or coached the game at a meaningful level for any length of time knows I speak truly.  And the advice I give any player is ignored at their own peril.   If you're not aware, as a player, that umps are human you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I didn't say the baserunner's job is to make sure the umpire gets the call right - that's a childish disingenuous interpretation...it may work in your high school debate class but it doesn't work here.  The baserunner's job IS, in part, to not do ANYTHING that could give an ump reason/pause to make a call that hurts the team.

It's quite simple, the closer you make any play, the more likely you're not going to get the call you want.   Umps are human...and at some point, when talking about hundredths of seconds, and fractions of inches, the ump's call is a coin flip.  Don't create coin flips you don't have to.   When you try to time yourself to leave the base the instant the ball is touched, you're creating a coin flip.  Wait a beat.

 

It's the same principle as teaching a two strike approach...anything close you gotta swing...otherwise, you may as well just flip a coin for ball/strike.

I'm going to disagree, with the acknowledgment that your advice has general validity--just not here. Attach what @mavensaid to this play...this should be called when the umpire is sure. If the runner is doing their job and slicing it razor-thin (on either side of the line,) that means it should not be called.

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm going to disagree, with the acknowledgment that your advice has general validity--just not here. Attach what @mavensaid to this play...this should be called when the umpire is sure. If the runner is doing their job and slicing it razor-thin (on either side of the line,) that means it should not be called.

I agree in principle...BUT...What should happen and what really happens are a couple of light years apart.  I've seen too many of these razor thin calls go the wrong way (and don't get me wrong, my teams and my opponents' teams)...and in the end, there's no real reason for the player to make them razor thin.   If I ever coach/play at a level where I can depend on umpires to do what they SHOULD do more often than not I might change my approach.

I would also be able to stop teaching kids to swing at any pitch within six inches of the strike zone with two strikes for the same reason.  Umps are human, and amateur umps are more human.

17 minutes ago, isired said:

And never saw that advice hurt a team until yesterday.

Well I've seen it more times than can count (both for and against my team) - umps effectively guessing at these really close calls that they really shouldn't be making without absolute certainty...what I've never seen is waiting a beat on a tag up resulting in an out at the next base.

They day I started playing with, and teaching, an approach to not leave the game, or any play, in the ump's hands was the turning point from years of mediocrity to years of success, including national championships.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, maven said:

His coach should be in his ear even before you grant the appeal, because he knows his runner left early. 

If I'm the runner's coach I'm not saying a word until it's too late to make the appeal.  Any coach that does something that might give it away is an idiot.

[Replacematt]

5 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I agree in principle...BUT...What should happen and what really happens are a couple of light years apart.  I've seen too many of these razor thin calls go the wrong way (and don't get me wrong, my teams and my opponents' teams)...and in the end, there's no real reason for the player to make them razor thin.   If I ever coach/play at a level where I can depend on umpires to do what they SHOULD do more often than not I might change my approach.

I would also be able to stop teaching kids to swing at any pitch within six inches of the strike zone with two strikes for the same reason.  Umps are human, and amateur umps are more human.

Well I've seen it more times than can count (both for and against my team) - umps effectively guessing at these really close calls that they really shouldn't be making without absolute certainty...what I've never seen is waiting a beat on a tag up resulting in an out at the next base.

They day I started playing with, and teaching, an approach to not leave the game, or any play, in the ump's hands was the turning point from years of mediocrity to years of success, including national championships.

I wonder how much of this is a self-licking ice-cream cone. Umpires make expected calls, players then expand their acceptance of risk, making more calls less gray, then close plays mean umpires make expected calls due to not being experienced at watching what they need to watch...

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If I'm the runner's coach I'm not saying a word until it's too late to make the appeal.  Any coach that does something that might give it away is an idiot.

...must...resist...

[aaluck]

57 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Well guys, anyone who has actually played and/or coached the game at a meaningful level for any length of time knows I speak truly. 

Although my coaching has been limited to youth ball for my kids, I played college baseball, so I understand a little. And at that level no coach ever told me to wait a second or two on a tag--or 1/8 of a second (as if that would make a difference) as you suggest above.  If an umpire is positioned properly there is not need to wait.  

Further, all 'meaningful' games have replay so errors are corrected--or in theory, correctable.  That's why they have replay, because they are meaningful, all the rest are just development or amateur. 

[beerguy55]

29 minutes ago, Matt said:

I wonder how much of this is a self-licking ice-cream cone. Umpires make expected calls, players then expand their acceptance of risk, making more calls less gray, then close plays mean umpires make expected calls due to not being experienced at watching what they need to watch...

That's the point...the more you push the boundaries, the more likely you are to get a call go the "wrong" way.  There's a time and a place, and most of the time the risk isn't worth the reward.   Bang-bang calls are 50-50 calls for most humans...that's why it's so remarkable at the pro level to see these guys hit 90-95% on being right.

Don't like that strike three call...hit the ball before the second strike.

Don't like being called out at first when you beat the throw by half a step...beat the throw by a full step.

Don't like the runner called safe at first...get the ball their sooner.

Otherwise...simply accept that coin flips aren't gonna go your way half the time.

Make the game easy on the umps.  On "non bang-bang" calls 99% of amateur umps will make the right call 99% of the time.   Where at all possible, don't put yourself in a situation where the call could go either way...there's enough times that happens when you have no control.  Don't make it harder by purposefully adding more of those situations.

I'm sick of coaches and players and parents bemoaning what might have been always coming down to a umpire's call, and not the fact that little Johnny struck out swinging at three pitches over his head in the first inning with the bases loaded.  (and I know OP didn't do that...wonder if he could say the same about the other people in the stands or on the bench) Make every play obvious and score 15 F*#King runs.   Make the ump a non-factor...he should simply be a nice guy providing non-biased opinions to help the game along...let him be that.