Player not listed on lineup card

[Guest D_T]

If using a courtesy runner for the pitcher/catcher who was not listed on the lineup card, when the runner occupies the base, can the umpire call her out, or does the opposing coach have recognize it and point it out ? (NFHS)

[MadMax]

In NFHS (Fed) Rules, unless there is a specific difference for softball, any subs (and courtesy runners fall under subs) that are not listed on the lineup card can be added at any time by the head coach. Then, any substitution that is made, such as a pinch runner, pinch batter, or a courtesy runner and not reported to the UIC (PU), then he is regarded as an Unannounced Substitution. Provided that the player is eligible to play, the UIC just makes the addition / correction to the lineup card. 

Even if the player brought in to courtesy run was ineligible, there is no penalty just because they touched the bag. The UIC would (or should) simply declare that the player cannot be a courtesy runner, and that a proper, eligible player is needed to CR, or... worst case... the Pitcher or Catcher that is potentially being run needs to run for him/herself. 

There is no, “Ha! Gotcha! He/she is Out!”

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS softball rule 3-1 ART. 3 . . . The team's lineup card shall include first initial and last name, jersey number, position and batting order of each starting player and shall include each eligible substitute. Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the plate umpire during the pregame conference.

PENALTY: After the lineup card has been submitted to and verified by the umpire and a change is subsequently made to a player/substitute name or number, or if a player/substitute is added to the lineup card, the umpire shall issue a team warning to the head coach of the team involved. Any further changes made to a player/substitute name or number results in the head coach being restricted to the dugout/bench area for the remainder of the game.

 

2019 NFHS Softball Case Book 3.1.3 Situation:  The visiting team’s head coach submits and verifies a lineup card with No. 4, L. Brown listed eighth in the batting order and playing first base. However, L. Brown is actually wearing uniform No. 21. After reaching base in the top of the third inning, the home coach appeals to the umpire that L. Brown is batting out of order. RULING:  L. Brown is the correct batter but is in violation of the rule that requires a player’s name and shirt number be correct on the lineup card. A team warning is issued to the visiting head coach, the error is corrected on the lineup card and play is resumed. Any subsequent name or number correction (including adding a substitute) to the lineup card will result in the visiting head coach being restricted to the team dugout/bench area for the remainder of the game.

[Guest D T]

Yes this was a softball game, though I do not know if there is a rules difference.  I thought the ump would make the other team's catcher run for herself, but instead he removed the courtesy runner who was not on the card from the base, told the coach to use the last completed at bat (which would be the case if there were no subs) as the courtesy runner, and then called that player out when she occupied the bag.

[maven]

59 minutes ago, Guest D T said:

Yes this was a softball game, though I do not know if there is a rules difference.  I thought the ump would make the other team's catcher run for herself, but instead he removed the courtesy runner who was not on the card from the base, told the coach to use the last completed at bat (which would be the case if there were no subs) as the courtesy runner, and then called that player out when she occupied the bag.

What time was the dinner reservation for?

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, Guest D T said:

Yes this was a softball game, though I do not know if there is a rules difference.  I thought the ump would make the other team's catcher run for herself, but instead he removed the courtesy runner who was not on the card from the base, told the coach to use the last completed at bat (which would be the case if there were no subs) as the courtesy runner, and then called that player out when she occupied the bag.

Untangling spaghetti ... (NOTE: NFHS Softball rules!)

First, what SHOULD have happened ...

The courtesy runner should be reported to the plate umpire who should be maintaining a proper line-up card.  He/She should catch the problematic request at that point and fix it (see @Senor Azul's citation above).  If not ... 

If the courtesy runner was NOT on the lineup, she is an ILLEGAL SUBSTITUTE (meaning she has no legal standing to enter the game since she is not on the roster; see 2.57.3)  That becomes fixed by the citation above (umpire warns the coach and adds her to the roster).  Now she can legally enter and we play ball.

Unpacking the suitcase of crazy that did happen ...  

"... removed the courtesy runner ... from the base ..."  NO, see above.

"... last completed at bat ... "  NO NO NO.  In NFHS, courtesy runners can ONLY be players who have not participated in the game in any other fashion (see 8.9.3).  If you have no legal subs, you have no legal courtesy runners.

"... and then called her out ..."  Dafuq?  Not sure where to even go with that bowl of crazy.

[Guest D T]

The reason for the courtesy runner being in the lineup was that this was a travel tournament using FED rules, so there were a few modifications.  We are given the list of those, and there were no modifications which would have affected or altered the rules cited in the responses.  Using the last completed at bat as a courtesy for pitcher/catcher (when you have no subs) is common in many of these types of tournaments. 

I asked the coach why his runner was called out, and when he told me I just assumed it was the correct call.  I knew that an incorrect player number on a card was correctable, but I never knew a player could be added.  I can't wait to see the coach in a couple weeks so we can laugh about it!

Thanks for the info !!

[MadMax]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

"... and then called her out ..."  Dafuq?  Not sure where to even go with that bowl of crazy.

 

8 hours ago, Guest D T said:

I asked the coach why his runner was called out, and when he told me I just assumed it was the correct call.

It wasn’t. This was another instance of a fellow umpire “making s#¡t up” again. 

This gets old. 

Even in a tournament setting, you (as an umpire) correct things as much as possible prior to putting the ball back in play. Tournaments routinely use NFHS as a core rule set, and then modify them so as to be more flexible and accommodating to having teams from a variety of locations and local rule sets play, and play at a more rapid, condensed pace. 

Courtesy Runners are one of those main aspects. Sure, an eligible substitute is to be used. If there isn’t one, then we will typically used a pulled starter (who is thus not in the current lineup). If the tournament rules are “bat everyone you brought”, then (either of) the last batted out(s) is/are used. And, worst case, no one can courtesy run, and that current pitcher or catcher just goes back out to the base and runs for themselves. 

Point is, you don’t call an Out here.

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, Guest D T said:

Using the last completed at bat as a courtesy for pitcher/catcher (when you have no subs) is common in many of these types of tournaments. 

This is an odd way to set it/describe it.  A single is a completed at bat...that guy can't be a courtesy runner if he's standing on second base when the catcher reaches first.

Many people mistakenly say "the last player who got out", but typically, when not using subs, the courtesy runner is the player in the lineup furthest from the batter who's not already on base....most of the time that's the last player to get out, but can also sometimes be the player who made the first out...or a runner who recently scored.

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, Guest D T said:

The reason for the courtesy runner being in the lineup was that this was a travel tournament using FED rules, so there were a few modifications.  We are given the list of those, and there were no modifications which would have affected or altered the rules cited in the responses.  Using the last completed at bat as a courtesy for pitcher/catcher (when you have no subs) is common in many of these types of tournaments. 

I asked the coach why his runner was called out, and when he told me I just assumed it was the correct call.  I knew that an incorrect player number on a card was correctable, but I never knew a player could be added.  I can't wait to see the coach in a couple weeks so we can laugh about it!

Thanks for the info !!

 

I read your statement above to say there was no modification -- so disregard this if I misunderstood.  IF THERE WAS NO RULE MODIFICATION, YOU DON'T MAKE IT UP at the plate meeting.  You use the existing rules.  So, again, if there was no eligible sub, there was no eligible courtesy runner.

I know different courtesy runner rules are common at tournaments.  This is why they need to be clearly defined ahead of time by the tournament.  I have sat through pre-tournament meetings with umpires and then walked out on the field with them moments later to hear them make something else up because (a) they didn't like the modification, (b) they just didn't listen, or (c) the modification made no sense.  NO.  DO NOT DO THIS.  If the tournament broke the rule, the tournament needs to fix it.

I hate to say this, but that stuff is what kept me away from doing baseball tournaments for a LONG time.  I would ask "What rule set are we playing under?" and everybody, including the TD, would give a stupid look and say "We' re just playing straight up baseball."  No.  It causes grief every time when you have one team wanting to use one rule set and the other team wanting to use another -- they are both right, yet somebody has to be wrong (other than the fans).

Now my bigger rant ... COURTESY RUNNERS ...

Can we just eliminate them altogether?  The purpose of the courtesy runner is to speed the game up by allowing the pitcher and/or catcher to go get ready to take the field (and to a much lesser extent get more kids in the game).  This rarely happens.  The typical process for a courtesy runner goes like this (DO NOT ALLOW THIS!):

1 minute for the first base coach to yell at the HC/third base coach, asking if he wants a courtesy runner.

2 minutes for the HC/third base coach to stop talking to the hot moms and realize the pitcher/catcher just reached base.

2 minutes to figure out who the courtesy runner should be.

3 minutes for Little Suzie or Johnny Junior to get back from the bathroom or concession stand.

2 minutes for Little Suzie or Johnny Junior to find her/his helmet.

1 minute for the first base coach to talk to Little Suzie or Johnny Junior once they get to the base.

AND STILL the catcher is NOT READY to take the field when the third out is made.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

This is an odd way to set it/describe it.  A single is a completed at bat...that guy can't be a courtesy runner if he's standing on second base when the catcher reaches first.

Many people mistakenly say "the last player who got out", but typically, when not using subs, the courtesy runner is the player in the lineup furthest from the batter who's not already on base....most of the time that's the last player to get out, but can also sometimes be the player who made the first out...or a runner who recently scored.

If you are not using the book rule and want to make it as flexible as possible, then "furthest removed not on base" is the best possible wording.

I worked a softball tournament where the rules they sent out said "the last batter."  When we brought that up at the pre-tournament meeting, the TD was adamant that was what he meant and that was what we were doing.  So ... "Sorry coach, she's on base.  You can take the out for abandonment if you want to pull her and use her as a courtesy runner.  No, sir.  The TD said 'the last batter' so that is what we are doing today."  That didn't last long after the coaches went complaining to the TD.  (Who, of course, said that isn't what he meant and the umpires were screwing it up.)

I believe it was USA Softball who gave up a few years ago and said "in pool play they can just use whoever they want."  (I'm a little rusty on my softball.)  

[MadMax]

5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I worked a softball tournament where the rules they sent out said "the last batter." 

Tournaments stumble their way into this problem when they have the best intention (to speed the game up for that 1:30 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 2:00 time limit), but then use the phrase “last batted out”... so you get an R1, and the next batter who hits into a FC at 2B. So who Courtesy Runs at 1B now? It would be R1, right? But no! He/she didn’t bat that last Out! 

It’s even more of a mess when the last Out or last batted Out is the catcher or pitcher, who is supposed to now courtesy run for their battery-mate! Hoooooofaaaah! 

Listen, I get it. I’ve worked and played in thousands of tournament games in my 29 years of baseball (so far). I cannot expect there to be logical consistency of Written Rules; what I do expect of myself and my direct colleagues is logical implementation and application of those rules, whatever they are. 

And no, an Out call is not warranted here. 

[MadMax]

22 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

You can take the out for abandonment if you want to pull her and use her as a courtesy runner. 

Can’t call an Out here. The ball is Dead. There is no abandonment if the ball is dead. 

I’m not directing this at you, MiB, but so many of our fellow umpires get this wrong in amateur baseball. If there’s a mixup in substitutions or courtesy runners or three kids having number 23 (LeBron!) or 24 (Kobe!), then you don’t just start calling Outs and forfeits!! You sort it out, make edits to the game / lineup card as needed (such as denoting 23A, 23B, and 23C), and you get back to (live) baseball. You don’t sit there, card in hand, and observe a team go “Time!” swap in another kid as a courtesy runner, only for an opposite team parent to proclaim, “But that kid has the wrong number on!”, and then just call, “Out!”. 

That’s ridiculous. 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Now my bigger rant ... COURTESY RUNNERS ...

Can we just eliminate them altogether?  The purpose of the courtesy runner is to speed the game up by allowing the pitcher and/or catcher to go get ready to take the field (and to a much lesser extent get more kids in the game).  This rarely happens.  The typical process for a courtesy runner goes like this (DO NOT ALLOW THIS!):

1 minute for the first base coach to yell at the HC/third base coach, asking if he wants a courtesy runner.

2 minutes for the HC/third base coach to stop talking to the hot moms and realize the pitcher/catcher just reached base.

2 minutes to figure out who the courtesy runner should be.

3 minutes for Little Suzie or Johnny Junior to get back from the bathroom or concession stand.

2 minutes for Little Suzie or Johnny Junior to find her/his helmet.

1 minute for the first base coach to talk to Little Suzie or Johnny Junior once they get to the base.

AND STILL the catcher is NOT READY to take the field when the third out is made.

The first time I ever took a team to a US tournament I just shook my head at the process...and still tend to do so.  IMO, the "using subs for C/R" rule is simply a ploy to get more players into the game, disguised as a way to speed it up.

The way we've always done it here is much more efficient, IMO.   Not only in the speed of the game and the C/R sub itself, but the frequency too.  In Canadian games (both baseball and softball), I could go two or three games without seeing either team put in a courtesy runner.  In the US, it was rare to see it happen less than twice a game.

• First - only for catchers, not pitchers....cuts number of C/R subs in half.
• Second - only with two out.  If F2 scores, or gets forced out, then you didn't need to give him extra time to get his pads on....further cuts down number of C/R subs, theoretically by 2/3.
• Third - furthest player from batter not on base (subs are subs, not C/Rs - this is not meant to get more players in the game, and it's not meant to encourage coaches to strategically place jackrabbits in the sub lineup) - no need for lineup updates with ump  (if they REALLY want that fast runner from the bench running for F2, they can do a sub, and then re-entry)
• Fourth - completely optional - if your catcher is fastest baserunner and a tight game, keep him in if you want.

This is basically how it goes...once F2 reaches base, with two out, and play is over...OR, once a second out occurs when F2 is on base..."Blue, Time? Courtesy Runner?"  And (99% of the time), 10 seconds later your courtesy runner is in place.    The ump does not verify this.  Much like MYTAB, it's up to the defense to say something if the offense put the wrong player out....and 99% of the time nobody worries too much.  

This is done in rec play, league play, tourney play, and the gold medal game of the national championship

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Can’t call an Out here. The ball is Dead. There is no abandonment if the ball is dead. 

I’m not directing this at you, MiB, but so many of our fellow umpires get this wrong in amateur baseball. If there’s a mixup in substitutions or courtesy runners or three kids having number 23 (LeBron!) or 24 (Kobe!), then you don’t just start calling Outs and forfeits!! You sort it out, make edits to the game / lineup card as needed (such as denoting 23A, 23B, and 23C), and you get back to (live) baseball. You don’t sit there, card in hand, and observe a team go “Time!” swap in another kid as a courtesy runner, only for an opposite team parent to proclaim, “But that kid has the wrong number on!”, and then just call, “Out!”. 

That’s ridiculous. 

Oh, please don't misread that! 😁 I'm not looking for stupid outs (or even saying that is right), I was pointing out what that made-up rule would force if the TD insisted on it.  The CR can't be on two bases at once and, as stated, substituting was not an option (or maybe it is -- forcing the coach to burn a substitution sounds equally stupid though).  So IF the coach wanted her on first base to run for the catcher, she would have to abandon her rightful place on second base.

Don't dig any further into this insanity!  And if you are a new ump reading this: DON'T DO THIS.  😁

 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

The first time I ever took a team to a US tournament I just shook my head at the process...and still tend to do so.  IMO, the "using subs for C/R" rule is simply a ploy to get more players into the game, disguised as a way to speed it up.

The way we've always done it here is much more efficient, IMO.   Not only in the speed of the game and the C/R sub itself, but the frequency too.  In Canadian games (both baseball and softball), I could go two or three games without seeing either team put in a courtesy runner.  In the US, it was rare to see it happen less than twice a game.

• First - only for catchers, not pitchers....cuts number of C/R subs in half.
• Second - only with two out.  If F2 scores, or gets forced out, then you didn't need to give him extra time to get his pads on....further cuts down number of C/R subs, theoretically by 2/3.
• Third - furthest player from batter not on base (subs are subs, not C/Rs - this is not meant to get more players in the game, and it's not meant to encourage coaches to strategically place jackrabbits in the sub lineup) - no need for lineup updates with ump  (if they REALLY want that fast runner from the bench running for F2, they can do a sub, and then re-entry)
• Fourth - completely optional - if your catcher is fastest baserunner and a tight game, keep him in if you want.

This is basically how it goes...once F2 reaches base, with two out, and play is over...OR, once a second out occurs when F2 is on base..."Blue, Time? Courtesy Runner?"  And (99% of the time), 10 seconds later your courtesy runner is in place.    The ump does not verify this.  Much like MYTAB, it's up to the defense to say something if the offense put the wrong player out....and 99% of the time nobody worries too much.  

This is done in rec play, league play, tourney play, and the gold medal game of the national championship

I need to move to Canada.  Socialized medicine, Tim Hortons, and common sense with courtesy runners.  I love all of this and have advocated for most of it. 

I agree, the pitcher does not need a CR.  Too many coaches think the CR is "to keep their pitcher from getting tired."  Use a DP/FLEX then coach.  IF the pitcher is getting a CR so she is ready for the next inning and to speed the game up, then there should be no reason for warm-up pitches between innings when she had a CR, right?  😉

I am a little lukewarm on the two outs thing ... double-play possibilities.  However, I think you should IMMEDIATELY put the CR in (and the CR should have been standing there with a helmet on, ready to go) or not at all.   

Because coaches try to pull shenanigans to get a strategic advantage with a free substitution, I like your pitch of a required CR (not a choice) to be in the game (as opposed to a sub).  OR, if you want the coach to be able to choose, require the CR to be designated on the line-up before the game.  No debate, no fuss -- helmet on, ready to go, just like an on-deck batter.

[beerguy55]

13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I am a little lukewarm on the two outs thing ... double-play possibilities.

True, but they happen far less frequently than F2 simply making the third out as the batter.  It's a compromise/risk I've always been happy to live with over allowing a CR for a slow catcher with nobody out.  In my experience even with two outs F2 has plenty of time to get the tools of ignorance on...unless the next batter gets out on the first pitch F2 will be ready.

15 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Tim Hortons

There should be 12 step programs for this.  Christ - I have Tim Hortons cups in my Keurig every morning.

[BLarson]

I typically only use courtesy runners for pitcher/catcher in the following situations:
Pitcher/Catcher is slow or bad baserunner and the CR is faster or better baserunner...most times it's a wash and we don't CR.   Some pitchers/catchers we would never CR for.
If it's extremely hot/humid I will CR for the Pitcher/Catcher to get him out of the sun and get them hydrated.