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Two umpires, two different calls, same play.


agdz59
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My partner and I did 12 games in 90 degree heat over the long weekend. (EDIT: 14U, NFHS) In the 10th game we did what we all dread (well, I think we all dread) - two simulataneous and different judgement calls on the same play.  Tell me how we did.  At the end, I'll give you my learning, please add others as you feel appropriate.

We pregamed at the very start that BU would go out for fly balls in the cone in B/C and between the right field line and F9 in A.  Standard stuff.  However, on this play we have R1 and R2, no outs, and I'm in C.  A screaming line drive is hit (in my view) right at F9.  I turn my back to the infield and take a few steps before setting myself. He catches, then loses the ball on the transfer.  I immediate signal and verbalize "on the ground" and then signal "safe".   I look over to 1B and see R1 and BR both there.  I hear a lot of commotion as it becomes clear my partner has called an out on the catch.  

We let play continue and end up with bases loaded, call time and we confer while both coaches come out to the foul lines.  My partner says he has a catch and that F9 moved toward the line. By NFHS rule, his opinion trumps everything and he was comfortable with that.  So I announce I have changed my call to a catch, BR is out.

The offensive coach comes out and I explain what I had and why I overturned it.  I told him it was my mistake.  He says "Well, I think you were right." I answered "We can discuss that after the game but the call stands".  He leaves.

The defensive coach comes out and wants the runner at 2nd called out for not tagging up.  OC is headed out again to listen in and I stop him, motion him back to his dugout, and tell him "Jeff, I've got this." He returns to his dugout.  I tell the defensive coach I saw R1 still on the bag after the catch and he is safe at 2nd.  He persists a second time but I tell him what I had and it will stand.

In my mind, even if he had left early, I was going to leave him on 2nd out of equity for our kicked call and the fact that he heard me say 'on the ground'.

After the game my partner and I talked and came up with even though we pre-gamed my going out and he had said "If I see your back, I'll take the bases." - in this case, that wasn't enough. We'd been through 9 games without incident but the ambiguity of where the ball was and how quickly it got there had us both thinking it was our call.

Big learning: ALWAYS verbalize "I'm going out!" even if your PU partner says he'll be looking for your back.

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Quick question…you are not saying you would go out from the middle in 2-man are you?

My two cents…whenever I have the ball as PU, I verbalize that I am on the line (or can say I have the ball, whatever).

If you are my BU and I think the catch is mine to call, you will know it.  Thus, and this can be pre-gamed, an absence of me saying that means it is yours.  Now, I usually will say something on those ambiguous ones too.

So in your situation you had, if I read it as yours, I will say something to the effect of, “Your ball Adam!” or “Adam, stay with the ball”

Line drives right at F7 and F9 are part of the game, so HPU needs to be ready for these and able to communicate, as they see it sooner than BU (right behind plate instead of turning to see where fielder is heading).

I’ve always said, two-man has enough holes, and if you communicate, the worst thing that happens is the umpire who had a slightly worse view makes the call, but at least you worked together and weren’t looking at the same thing.

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36 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

He catches, then loses the ball on the transfer.  I immediate signal and verbalize "on the ground" and then signal "safe".

These can't both be right. If the first sentence is true, then it was a catch, and you were incorrect to rule otherwise. If your call was correct and it was not a catch, then he didn't lose it on the transfer.

Clarity on that point will help resolve the judgment call. However that might be, I never like umpires who declare that their "opinion trumps everything," which suggests a lack of respect. That approach does not promote healthy crew interaction.

Ideally, you'd get a word of communication from him that he had the ball, but on a hot liner maybe there wasn't time.

As for R1: when we change a judgment call (no catch to catch), we are required by rule to rectify any disadvantage our doing so creates. Accordingly, you can return R1 to 1B, which is what would have happened without the confusing double-call. I would not recommend leaving him on 2B, as that's a base that the offense did not earn; nor would I call R1 out, which is an out the defense did not earn.

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There seems to be some misunderstanding with how the 2 umpire system works. In 2 man, you can only go out from A, never B or C. Perhaps you mean you step up to the grass dirt line (or approximately so if there is no infield grass)? That would not be considered going out, and you would still be responsible for the plays at all bases. 

Also, this sounds like it should absolutely be your ball. Even if F9 takes a step or two to the line, it won't be challenging fair foul barring some weird alignment by the outfielders. Technically, by the book, yes, that would be PU's catch no catch. In practice, unless it's challenging fair foul, U1 should take it. On a screamer, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be PU's, except that if he were to dive somewhat back towards the wall you may get blocked out. But I don't think I've ever seen that before.

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34 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

Technically, by the book, yes, that would be PU's catch no catch. In practice, unless it's challenging fair foul, U1 should take it. On a screamer, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be PU's,

Yes, by the book it is the PU so why the opposite 'in practice'.  This is exactly why there were two different calls. U1 has L/R fielder IN to center and PU has L/R fielder OUT to lines.

Now, I agree with you you that its not very clear here what direction, if any, F9 moved.

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52 minutes ago, maven said:

These can't both be right. If the first sentence is true, then it was a catch, and you were incorrect to rule otherwise. If your call was correct and it was not a catch, then he didn't lose it on the transfer.

Clarity on that point will help resolve the judgment call. However that might be, I never like umpires who declare that their "opinion trumps everything," which suggests a lack of respect. That approach does not promote healthy crew interaction.

Sure.  What I saw was the ball enter his glove, then he immediately attempts a transfer, while moving, which results in the ball on the ground.  I've got 'no catch' by NFHS Rule 2-6-8.  Specifically: "The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed."  In my judgement, the continuing action was never completed.

Also, the "trumps everything" comes from me as my interpretation of the UIC's responsibilities in FED. My partner did not say that.  Sorry to confuse.

In this case, with both coaches and players justifiably piqued and confused by the two calls, I didn't want our conversation to be prolonged.  He was sure of his judgement as was I.  Instead of an argument, I chose to eat my call and move on.

 

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1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

Quick question…you are not saying you would go out from the middle in 2-man are you?

Agreed with everything you said @SH0102.  About the above, our association norm is to pregame how to handle the cone and down the line.  Most all of the experienced umpires I've worked with this year have told me "I'll be looking for your back and if you go out, I'll take the bases."  If we were to have another association meeting this year, I think we would both say "be sure to verbalize!"

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9 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Agreed with everything you said @SH0102.  About the above, our association norm is to pregame how to handle the cone and down the line.  Most all of the experienced umpires I've worked with this year have told me "I'll be looking for your back and if you go out, I'll take the bases."  If we were to have another association meeting this year, I think we would both say "be sure to verbalize!"

But this should only happen from the A position

bu NEVER goes out from B or C position

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59 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

There seems to be some misunderstanding with how the 2 umpire system works. In 2 man, you can only go out from A, never B or C. Perhaps you mean you step up to the grass dirt line (or approximately so if there is no infield grass)? That would not be considered going out, and you would still be responsible for the plays at all bases. 

I'm not doing a good job of describing this.  Points up my need to know exactly what I am talking about.  Essentially, I did what you are pointing out.  I noticed the sharp hit going over my left shoulder, turned, took a few steps and stopped before reaching the dirt, gave my judgement on the catch/no catch, then looked toward 1B to pick up R1 who was still on the base.  

I opened my NFHS Umpire Manual, pages 54-55 which states what we were trying to accomplish.

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32 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Yes, by the book it is the PU so why the opposite 'in practice'.  This is exactly why there were two different calls. U1 has L/R fielder IN to center and PU has L/R fielder OUT to lines.

Now, I agree with you you that its not very clear here what direction, if any, F9 moved.

It all happened so fast, I'd like to see the replay to be definitive.  :-)

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4 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

But this should only happen from the A position

bu NEVER goes out from B or C position

This could be hearing "BU takes the catch / no catch between R7 and R9" or it could be the instructors in the association are saying 'Go out' to mean "take the catch".  I'll have to ask.

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1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

Sure.  What I saw was the ball enter his glove, then he immediately attempts a transfer, while moving, which results in the ball on the ground.  I've got 'no catch' by NFHS Rule 2-6-8.  Specifically: "The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed."  In my judgement, the continuing action was never completed.

OK, I'll try one last time.

I'm not disputing your rules knowledge, but your account of the action. We say "on the transfer" ONLY when we're ruling it a catch. If it's not a catch, then it's not "on the transfer," because he's not transferring the ball from secure possession in the glove to secure possession in the hand.

Verbalizing and signaling "on the transfer" communicates our judgment that the fielder had secure possession of the ball in the glove and voluntarily released it ("transfer") to the throwing hand.  That judgment warrants an out call, even though the ball is on the ground, and it generally needs to be sold hard.

Although it might seem that this kind of play is difficult to judge, in practice it's usually pretty easy. A ball dropped on the transfer typically has a quite different vector from that of the fly ball—up and back, or some such. A ball not caught usually doesn't get down into the webbing of the glove, or it's dropped due to contact with the ground (diving no catch) or with the wall or another player (collision no catch).

There's no standard of "when in doubt" for this play. At young-ish levels, we want every out we can snatch from struggling fielders, so when in doubt call the out. In pro ball, the onus is on the fielder to prove secure possession and voluntary release.

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Thanks Maven, that makes a lot of sense.  The irony here is that before our first game, I told my partner I was going to need to see evidence of a 'safe' before I'd call it on the bases so be prepared for almost all the bangers to be called outs.   I should have applied the same reasoning to this play at the 14U level.

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

In a two-umpire system, the way to approach outfield flies with runners on is that all of them belong to BU until PU communicates that they are going to take the ball.

Another excellent point.  PU has everything right in front of him and can decide if he needs to take it or not.  BU knows he just needs to listen to be called off while waiting for the catch.  I'm going to start mentioning this at all my pre-games.  Thank you!

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5 hours ago, Matt said:

In a two-umpire system, the way to approach outfield flies with runners on is that all of them belong to BU until PU communicates that they are going to take the ball.

Not all umpires are taught the reason why this is the mechanic. As with all calls, in general the closest umpire is best for making the call.

The exception is made when the fielder has to move toward the foul line, because PU will be on the line to rule on fair/foul, so it makes sense to task him with catch/no catch as well.

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@agdz59, you've gotten a lot of good information here from a lot of experienced and knowledgeable umpires. I would also encourage you to contact your senior leadership or your director of training or your senior mentors within your association to review this situation and confirm the proper mechanics and responsibilities.

I also want to add a caveat of my own...as you describe this play, this batted ball belongs to U1 until PU calls U1 off the ball. And as you yourself said just above, this is why this should be added to your pre-game every time. Even if you are working with someone you have worked with before. I have worked with partners who as PU grab this call as soon as F7 or F9 take one step to the line. I have worked with other partners who don't take this call until F7 or F9 take several steps to the line.

If you think you heard PU calling you (as U1) off a ball down the line, take a quick peak over your shoulder. If PU has taken this ball, he should be moving up the line. If PU has not taken this ball, he is likely still on point of plate (depending on the runners on, of course...) I'm not sure what levels you work, but even small crowds can drown out the verbal communications of umpires so, I would also encourage you to pre-game a visual communication wherein PU taps his palm to his chest two times. If you are PU taking this ball, get verbal so that Mrs. Marino 2 blocks over can hear you. She's an umpire fan and likes to know we know what we're doing, too... 

In closing, it takes guts to come onto an open forum like U-E and admit one's mistakes. If you had not done that, you might still be at risk of erring on this again. Good luck going forward and remember...we're always here, ready to assist each other.

~Dawg

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Thanks Dawg, maven and everyone else.  Now that I've got the mechanics of the call understood so this doesn't happen again, any thoughts on how I handled untangling the screw up? 

I think I did ok because the game - which was very closely fought - went on without any further reference from bench or stands about this obvious breakdown between us umpires.  I've been working all year on improving my game management and this had out-of-control-spiral written all over it.  But I'd love to hear any of your ideas for or experience in handling things like this.

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7 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Thanks Maven, that makes a lot of sense.  The irony here is that before our first game, I told my partner I was going to need to see evidence of a 'safe' before I'd call it on the bases so be prepared for almost all the bangers to be called outs.   I should have applied the same reasoning to this play at the 14U level.

Be careful with this. You’re priming yourself for outs. Sounds great in theory, but in practice you’re going to kick calls you shouldn’t. 
 

Your mind should be a blank slate as the play is happening. See the play, call the play. That’s it. Not anticipate out out out out out like the defensive coach. That’s how plays blow up on you. 

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On 6/1/2021 at 9:08 AM, agdz59 said:

Me and my partner did 12 games in 90 degree heat over the long weekend. (EDIT: 14U, NFHS)

 

Great thread, thanks for posting, agdz! If you did 12 games in 90 degree sun over the 3 days, and that's the only time you and a partner got jammed up, I'd say you had a kick-ass umpiring weekend!! I remember those Memorial Day tourneys in the heat. By the last game on Monday, muscles all over my body were spasming with cramps, my eyes were burning, my knees were swelling, I almost felt like crying, was praying for a 10 after 5, and I couldn't wait to get to the nearest grocery store to chug an entire jar of pickle juice 😀.  I simply can't do that any more. But what fun they were, what great friends I made!! How my umpiring skills improved!

I do agree as to the above advice from the UE Masters:  Pregame by PU to BU:  "You've got all fly balls to the outfield, unless I call you off."

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21 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Thanks Dawg, maven and everyone else.  Now that I've got the mechanics of the call understood so this doesn't happen again, any thoughts on how I handled untangling the screw up? 

I think I did ok because the game - which was very closely fought - went on without any further reference from bench or stands about this obvious breakdown between us umpires.  I've been working all year on improving my game management and this had out-of-control-spiral written all over it.  But I'd love to hear any of your ideas for or experience in handling things like this.

 

That's the part I wanted to get back to @agdz59 ... untangling it all.

You said you allowed the play to play out and ended up with bases loaded.  I am assuming that means the defense did not make a play (or did not successfully make a play).  I'm also assuming that you believed the defense was not going to make a play on the runner going to second.  Given that, I think your untangling was the best you can do in that situation, including your graciousness to eat the call.

I agree with your notion that even if he had left early you were leaving him there.  YOU killed the play and did not allow him a chance to go back.  Now, you could make the argument that you also didn't allow the defense a chance to appeal properly ... however you did when you let it play out.  If the coach thought he left early, he would have been calling for a play.  Yes, technically you may have denied them an appeal, but that appeal felt more like a fishing expedition the way you described it.

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

That's the part I wanted to get back to @agdz59 ... untangling it all.

You said you allowed the play to play out and ended up with bases loaded.  I am assuming that means the defense did not make a play (or did not successfully make a play).  I'm also assuming that you believed the defense was not going to make a play on the runner going to second.  Given that, I think your untangling was the best you can do in that situation, including your graciousness to eat the call.

Correct on all that.  We let it play it out until both coaches were coming out to the foul line and the defense was talking with themselves, us, and their coach instead of doing something with the baseball.  At that point, the bases were loaded.

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On 6/1/2021 at 12:31 PM, aaluck said:

Yes, by the book it is the PU so why the opposite 'in practice'.  This is exactly why there were two different calls. U1 has L/R fielder IN to center and PU has L/R fielder OUT to lines.

Now, I agree with you you that its not very clear here what direction, if any, F9 moved.

You know, this is a good question. I have a feeling that it stems from the people making mechanics books wanting to draw arrows in the book, but as Matt (and others) have said, it's U1's until called off. There's not a great way to put that in a mechanicgram, so I imagine that's why. 

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