Jump to content
  • 0

Runner Assistance


Guest Tomuic

Question

Guest Tomuic

OBR: Runner misses plate, umpire sees that he missed it. As the runner is walking away, the on- deck batter grabs and shoves him back toward the plate. NOW, AND ONLY NOW, as the runner is trying to return to touch the plate, the catcher tries to tag him, but the runner beats the tag.The question I have is: Is this a situation where the umpire is acknowledging that a base was missed if he treats this  runner as “still running the bases” AND calls him out due to the assistance from his teammate. If not, what is the correct rule for this play (other than the umpire “ not seeing the missed plate and/or the physical assistance”)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Under OBR, Wendelstedt has an interpretation that states the following:

No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base.  8.4.2e, p 160

My manual is from 2015 so the cite may have changed if there's a newer manual out there from Hunter. 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

On the missed touch of home—-Umpire makes no call and waits for the appeal.

‘As soon as runner is being assisted back to the plate umpire calls him out.

‘Ball stays live.

‘However—-suppose runner touched the plate but his teammates thinks that he missed it and start dragging him back?

Since no legally scored run can be taken away we have nothing—unless of course, another runner is trying to score and this action interferes with the defense.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Hmmm ... interesting that OBR 6.01(a)(8) only refers to the base coaches.

(8)  In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

@johnnyg08 ... could you post more on the interp and how he arrives at that?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

That should work well ...

"You see coach, I understand there is nothing in the rulebook.  However, I once read an article in a magazine ... Yes, yes.  No, coach, you see ... there was also this other guy once who said in an e-mail to another guy ... No, I understand that isn't what the rule actually says ... but your guy is out anyway."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
23 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Hmmm ... interesting that OBR 6.01(a)(8) only refers to the base coaches.

(8)  In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

@johnnyg08 ... could you post more on the interp and how he arrives at that?

 

 

Sure. I can look sometime this week. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 hour ago, MT73 said:

So if R1 misses second base and his teammate runs out and drags him back you’ll allow that?

 

 

Not saying yes or no just yet ...

But in a world where we want to allow baserunners to run the bases backwards because of very specific words (or the absence of), then I would have to apply very specific words (or the absence of) to this play as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 5/30/2021 at 10:44 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Hmmm ... interesting that OBR 6.01(a)(8) only refers to the base coaches.

(8)  In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

@johnnyg08 ... could you post more on the interp and how he arrives at that?

 

 

Right.  So when a coach assists, the runner is out.

When someone else assists, the book is silent -- the runner could be safe, or the runner could be out, or it could be a forfeit, or both players could be ejected, or it could be an immediate dead ball and all runners return to the last base occupied, or ....

 

So, since it's not covered, we either need an interp or to use the "god" rule.

 

Treating this as "when someone else assists, the runner is not out" is faulty logic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 5/30/2021 at 10:44 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Hmmm ... interesting that OBR 6.01(a)(8) only refers to the base coaches.

(8)  In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

@johnnyg08 ... could you post more on the interp and how he arrives at that?

Okay...here's what I have in its entirety from Wendelstedt:

p. 137 (Cross references NFHS 3-2-2)

Physical Assistance:

A member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, physically assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base 6.01 a8

Enforcement: 

When a runner is physically assisted, the umpire will call out the runner. The ball remains alive and in play. If other runners advance or are put out following the call, those plays stand. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
30 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Okay...here's what I have in its entirety from Wendelstedt:

p. 137 (Cross references NFHS 3-2-2)

Physical Assistance:

A member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, physically assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base 6.01 a8

Enforcement: 

When a runner is physically assisted, the umpire will call out the runner. The ball remains alive and in play. If other runners advance or are put out following the call, those plays stand. 

 

 

 

Appreciate it Jonny, but ... that is of no help other than saying Wendelstedt is in a privileged position to MSU and make it stick.  That is pulling a rule from another code an inappropriately applying it.  Isn't that something that is beaten into umpires?  Don't use rules from other organizations.  Maybe it was just me who that was beaten into.  (This is the same issue I have with Childress's work when he says "treat as in ...")

Yes, the ruling makes total sense.  Yes, OBR should have that rule ... but it doesn't, SO FIX IT.  Quit MSU.  (Or invoke 8.01(c) but DO NOT say "Well, Little League does this ...)

An interpretation should be a position/application that is rationally built upon the logic presented in existing rules.  Not "they screwed up, but a guy with an authoritative position says so in his book."

 

Why isn't my dead horse moving?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Appreciate it Jonny, but ... that is of no help other than saying Wendelstedt is in a privileged position to MSU and make it stick.  That is pulling a rule from another code an inappropriately applying it.  Isn't that something that is beaten into umpires?  Don't use rules from other organizations.  Maybe it was just me who that was beaten into.  (This is the same issue I have with Childress's work when he says "treat as in ...")

Yes, the ruling makes total sense.  Yes, OBR should have that rule ... but it doesn't, SO FIX IT.  Quit MSU.  (Or invoke 8.01(c) but DO NOT say "Well, Little League does this ...)

An interpretation should be a position/application that is rationally built upon the logic presented in existing rules.  Not "they screwed up, but a guy with an authoritative position says so in his book."

 

Why isn't my dead horse moving?

Only the relayer of information Mr. @The Man in Blue

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Yes, OBR should have that rule ... but it doesn't, SO FIX IT.  Quit MSU.  (

You know the reason they don't "fix it."

I am not giving you advice, but I will say my life became a lot (well, a little) less stressful when I stopped (it's a work in progress) worrying about stuff like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

@johnnyg08, make my dead horse go!!  😉

@noumpere me too.  I just like yelling at the clouds here.  Those clouds need to get off my lawn!  😁

I need to write my own interp book.  “Yes, the rule SAYS the ball has to be round and white, but it only says that once.  Surely the founders were wanting us to use a rugby ball instead.”  😉

But seriously, I like coming here because I feel it is a place to have intellectual conversations which help me better understand the rules and be a better umpire.  It frustrates me when we hide behind high-level MSU and most people are OK with that.  Just the youthful, idealistic, altruist part of me that hasn’t been completely beaten out by the last few decades.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

[no rant tag. More a somber one]

@noumpere You are right since this is just a game but the same issue exists in things that truly matter (the legal system has always had known issues that could be clarified) and this being a game makes it even more frustrating it can't be fixed here since it should be that much simpler.

The seemingly arbitrary nature of the rules and their application, seems to me, to contribute to umpire abuse (not cause, not primary. Contribute). The fact that we, the 1%-5%(?) of all umpires and .0001% (if that) of all baseball fans debate what a "force play" is - something that happens approx. 1 of every 3* outs, speaks to that.

* Using the mlb.com Rules definition. ~25% strikeout rate, call it 8% tagouts, and split the rest putout in flight and groundouts.

 

Ok. Time to go do a game. LL Minors TOC (District Championship playoffs) starts today. I've got opening plate. Hopefully no one does something completely brand new that I have to MSU to resolve - that was a joke, but 9-10 years do seem to be the most inventive :)

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...