BR runs to 1B thinking it's uncaught 3rd strike

[rhinolith]

I have seen this twice: both at different age levels of Babe Ruth. Let's say there is one out and one on at R2.

Case 1: The batter thinks there is an uncaught third strike. The dugout is yelling at him to run, so he drops the bat and starts running to first. However, it's not an uncaught third strike...it's a foul tip. U1 signals out. Catcher then panics seeing the BR going to first and throws the ball to first, but overthrows the ball. R2 comes around and scores.

Is the runner allowed to just run to first? I don't find a rule forbidding it, but it seems like it shouldn't be legal. It seems like R2 should be put back on second base.

Case 2: Same situation but instead of the catcher getting a foul tip, the uncaught strike is just strike two. But the batter hears the dugout and coaches yelling at him to run to first. He does that, and the catcher throws the ball away and R2 scores.

Thank you for the help.

[pnewton]

A foul tip (sharp and direct to the catcher, and caught) is a live ball. Assuming this one was strike 3 the catcher should know the situation and not throw. The umpire should also be clearly verbalizing that the batter is out.

 

Pretty similar in scenario 2, but with umpire clearly and repeatedly communicating "strike 2!"

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, rhinolith said:

I have seen this twice: both at different age levels of Babe Ruth. Let's say there is one out and one on at R2.

Case 1: The batter thinks there is an uncaught third strike. The dugout is yelling at him to run, so he drops the bat and starts running to first. However, it's not an uncaught third strike...it's a foul tip. U1 signals out. Catcher then panics seeing the BR going to first and throws the ball to first, but overthrows the ball. R2 comes around and scores.

Is the runner allowed to just run to first? I don't find a rule forbidding it, but it seems like it shouldn't be legal. It seems like R2 should be put back on second base.

Case 2: Same situation but instead of the catcher getting a foul tip, the uncaught strike is just strike two. But the batter hears the dugout and coaches yelling at him to run to first. He does that, and the catcher throws the ball away and R2 scores.

Thank you for the help.

It is the catchers responsibility, in conjunction with the plate umpire usually making a call (“he’s out” or “batters out”) to know the situation.

The rule (don’t have the number in front of me) states that a runner (or batter) having just been put out, has not committed interference merely by advancing or attempting to return.

There are things they can do that would be deemed INT, but simply running is not one of them.

Here is a doozy…can a batter who has legally been put out (strike three), who has no legal right to advance to first but is running anyways (doesn’t know the situation) be guilty of runners lane interference when a catchers throw, that he shouldn’t be making to begin with, is impeded at first by the batter being out of the RL?

[Replacematt]

7 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Here is a doozy…can a batter who has legally been put out (strike three), who has no legal right to advance to first but is running anyways (doesn’t know the situation) be guilty of runners lane interference when a catchers throw, that he shouldn’t be making to begin with, is impeded at first by the batter being out of the RL?

Nope. The rule refers to a batter-runner, and there's also no play being made as they are already out.

[Umpire942]

more common is drop 3rd strike less then 2 outs, 1st occupied.   if the catcher throws wild, runners can go no? ball is live, catcher made a mistake

[maven]

5 hours ago, rhinolith said:

Case 1: The batter thinks there is an uncaught third strike. The dugout is yelling at him to run, so he drops the bat and starts running to first. However, it's not an uncaught third strike...it's a foul tip. U1 signals out. Catcher then panics seeing the BR going to first and throws the ball to first, but overthrows the ball. R2 comes around and scores.

Play stands. Players are supposed to know the situation. Better mechanics can help prevent the clown rodeo: when retired batter takes off, verbalize & signal "Batter's out!!"

5 hours ago, rhinolith said:

Case 2: Same situation but instead of the catcher getting a foul tip, the uncaught strike is just strike two. But the batter hears the dugout and coaches yelling at him to run to first. He does that, and the catcher throws the ball away and R2 scores.

Same answer, but verbalize "Strike TWO!"

[MadMax]

7 hours ago, rhinolith said:

U1 signals out. Catcher then panics seeing the BR going to first and throws the ball to first,

Why is U1 signaling an Out? Do you, @rhinolith, have your nomenclature confused, and labeling the PU as U1? If you really do mean U1 – as in, 1st Base Umpire – then on a play like this, U1 should not be signaling an Out. If he’s giving a closed fist (for a catch) or is giving an Out mechanic after being appealed to as part of a check swing appeal, that’s appropriate, but technically not his call of Out on the B/BR. That determination still lies with the PU. 

Now, if you mean the PU and typed U1 – going forward, it’s PU. In 2-man, the nomenclature is PU and BU. In 3- & 4-man, it is PU, U1, U3, and U2. 6-man adds UL and UR. Some arcane HS manuals list PU as U1, but that’s ridiculous, and has been cleaned up and corrected in recent publications. 

In either case, PU must do a better job of signaling – both visual (mechanic) and audible (vocal). On your first scenario, this is where “my” method of saying “Caught!” on a potential U3K really comes in handy. Then follow it with a “Batter’s out. He’s out,” if the F2 (catcher) is still in a panic. To give the status of a runner or batter isn’t “coaching” the players; if we were to say, “don’t throw it”, yeah, that’s coaching players. PU could also team that vocal with a distinguishable Out mechanic, and point at the (retired) Batter / Batter-Runner. Take the ambiguity and the appearance of indecision and indefinite-ness off the table by being bold, clear, concise, and definite. 

On your second scenario, having a more affable, familial rapport with the participants can really help you. Anticipate, react to, and defeat what’s about to happen with simple things such as, “That’s only strike two, only strike two” so at least the catcher can hear and understand, or “Where ya going?” or “Come on back here” to the Batter. These are amateurs, not pros; these are kids, not adults. If the catcher wants to throw to 2B or 3B, that’s on him. But if he throws to 1B in a panic because you (PU) couldn’t be bothered to know the count and/or too shy / reserved / aloof / obtuse to say it? That’s kind of a d!ck move. 

Even in worst-case scenario, though, unless an/the umpire vocally called “Ball 4” or “He’s Out” or something else that changes the status of the batter and runners, the ball is still Live and in play. So if the Batter is Out on a caught 3rd strike swinging, and the F2 airmails a throw into RF, and R2 scores... well, that’s the breaks. R2s run scores and Batter is Out (unless it was actually the 3rd out). Similarly, if the Batter takes off for 1B when it’s actually only Strike 2, and the F2 ignores your vocal status updates, and airmails it again into RF (lots of postage being spent!), then R2 ends up where he does, at 3B or scoring, and we put Batter back in the box with the count now X-2. 

[Jimurray]

40 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Why is U1 signaling an Out? Do you, @rhinolith, have your nomenclature confused, and labeling the PU as U1? If you really do mean U1 – as in, 1st Base Umpire – then on a play like this, U1 should not be signaling an Out. If he’s giving a closed fist (for a catch) or is giving an Out mechanic after being appealed to as part of a check swing appeal, that’s appropriate, but technically not his call of Out on the B/BR. That determination still lies with the PU. 

Now, if you mean the PU and typed U1 – going forward, it’s PU. In 2-man, the nomenclature is PU and BU. In 3- & 4-man, it is PU, U1, U3, and U2. 6-man adds UL and UR. Some arcane HS manuals list PU as U1, but that’s ridiculous, and has been cleaned up and corrected in recent publications. 

In either case, PU must do a better job of signaling – both visual (mechanic) and audible (vocal). On your first scenario, this is where “my” method of saying “Caught!” on a potential U3K really comes in handy. Then follow it with a “Batter’s out. He’s out,” if the F2 (catcher) is still in a panic. To give the status of a runner or batter isn’t “coaching” the players; if we were to say, “don’t throw it”, yeah, that’s coaching players. PU could also team that vocal with a distinguishable Out mechanic, and point at the (retired) Batter / Batter-Runner. Take the ambiguity and the appearance of indecision and indefinite-ness off the table by being bold, clear, concise, and definite. 

On your second scenario, having a more affable, familial rapport with the participants can really help you. Anticipate, react to, and defeat what’s about to happen with simple things such as, “That’s only strike two, only strike two” so at least the catcher can hear and understand, or “Where ya going?” or “Come on back here” to the Batter. These are amateurs, not pros; these are kids, not adults. If the catcher wants to throw to 2B or 3B, that’s on him. But if he throws to 1B in a panic because you (PU) couldn’t be bothered to know the count and/or too shy / reserved / aloof / obtuse to say it? That’s kind of a d!ck move. 

Even in worst-case scenario, though, unless an/the umpire vocally called “Ball 4” or “He’s Out” or something else that changes the status of the batter and runners, the ball is still Live and in play. So if the Batter is Out on a caught 3rd strike swinging, and the F2 airmails a throw into RF, and R2 scores... well, that’s the breaks. R2s run scores and Batter is Out (unless it was actually the 3rd out). Similarly, if the Batter takes off for 1B when it’s actually only Strike 2, and the F2 ignores your vocal status updates, and airmails it again into RF (lots of postage being spent!), then R2 ends up where he does, at 3B or scoring, and we put Batter back in the box with the count now X-2. 

I downloaded a 4 man briefing that used the U1 as the Plate. Totally confusing. Thank god for “find/change”

[Replacematt]

20 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I downloaded a 4 man briefing that used the U1 as the Plate. Totally confusing. Thank god for “find/change”

If I saw that, I would question everything else in it.

[Velho]

"He's out. He's out! He's still out"

[rhinolith]

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

Why is U1 signaling an Out? Do you, @rhinolith, have your nomenclature confused, and labeling the PU as U1? If you really do mean U1 – as in, 1st Base Umpire – then on a play like this, U1 should not be signaling an Out. If he’s giving a closed fist (for a catch) or is giving an Out mechanic after being appealed to as part of a check swing appeal, that’s appropriate, but technically not his call of Out on the B/BR. That determination still lies with the PU. 

Now, if you mean the PU and typed U1 – going forward, it’s PU. In 2-man, the nomenclature is PU and BU. In 3- & 4-man, it is PU, U1, U3, and U2. 6-man adds UL and UR. Some arcane HS manuals list PU as U1, but that’s ridiculous, and has been cleaned up and corrected in recent publications. 

In either case, PU must do a better job of signaling – both visual (mechanic) and audible (vocal). On your first scenario, this is where “my” method of saying “Caught!” on a potential U3K really comes in handy. Then follow it with a “Batter’s out. He’s out,” if the F2 (catcher) is still in a panic. To give the status of a runner or batter isn’t “coaching” the players; if we were to say, “don’t throw it”, yeah, that’s coaching players. PU could also team that vocal with a distinguishable Out mechanic, and point at the (retired) Batter / Batter-Runner. Take the ambiguity and the appearance of indecision and indefinite-ness off the table by being bold, clear, concise, and definite. 

On your second scenario, having a more affable, familial rapport with the participants can really help you. Anticipate, react to, and defeat what’s about to happen with simple things such as, “That’s only strike two, only strike two” so at least the catcher can hear and understand, or “Where ya going?” or “Come on back here” to the Batter. These are amateurs, not pros; these are kids, not adults. If the catcher wants to throw to 2B or 3B, that’s on him. But if he throws to 1B in a panic because you (PU) couldn’t be bothered to know the count and/or too shy / reserved / aloof / obtuse to say it? That’s kind of a d!ck move. 

Even in worst-case scenario, though, unless an/the umpire vocally called “Ball 4” or “He’s Out” or something else that changes the status of the batter and runners, the ball is still Live and in play. So if the Batter is Out on a caught 3rd strike swinging, and the F2 airmails a throw into RF, and R2 scores... well, that’s the breaks. R2s run scores and Batter is Out (unless it was actually the 3rd out). Similarly, if the Batter takes off for 1B when it’s actually only Strike 2, and the F2 ignores your vocal status updates, and airmails it again into RF (lots of postage being spent!), then R2 ends up where he does, at 3B or scoring, and we put Batter back in the box with the count now X-2. 

Yes...I meant PU and not U1. Thank you for the detailed answer.

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

If I saw that, I would question everything else in it.

I think it used be standard FED nomenclature, U1 at the plate, U2 at 1B, U3 at 2B and U4 at 3B. Once find/change worked it wasn't a bad guide.

[Senor Azul]

Here is a doozy…can a batter who has legally been put out (strike three), who has no legal right to advance to first but is running anyways (doesn’t know the situation) be guilty of runners lane interference when a catchers throw, that he shouldn’t be making to begin with, is impeded at first by the batter being out of the RL?

Mr. SHO102,

You might find interesting the following case play found in the 2016 BRD (section 296, p. 197):

Play 161-296:  R1. The runner is moving on the pitch when B1’s attempted bunt is a pop-up behind the plate. BR heads for first as the foul is caught. The catcher throws to F3 to double up R1, but his throw hits BR in the running lane and goes into the dugout. Ruling:  R1 is awarded third. BR was in the running lane; that he continued to run is not sufficient to create interference.

Note 267:  If BR had been to the left or right of the lane, the umpire would properly call out R1 because of interference by a retired batter-runner. BRD comment:  If R1 does not retouch first before he touches second on the award, on proper appeal he will be out.