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Crazy Base Running - Tons to keep your eye on as an Umpire


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33 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

tell me with a straight face “Yes, the creators and governing bodies of the sport want things like this to be allowed.”

Well, the rules are designed to favor the offense, so Yes, the creators and governing bodies of the sport want things like this to be allowed.

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15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

A question on another level; one I have hinted at before:  Why do we want to perform such mental gymnastics to allow stupidity like this in the game?  Seriously ... look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face “Yes, the creators and governing bodies of the sport want things like this to be allowed.”

I agree with you, to the extent of the B/R...I just don't think the "three foot" rule applies here...and even if it did, there was no tag attempt....chasing and/or moving towards the fielder is not a tag attempt...not yet.  Even if that is resolved I also think your interpretation opens a can of worms on forced runners...I think we do want them to be able to retreat...just not the B/R.

The solution is simple...add the "softball" rule..."When he steps back toward home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder"...b/r out, all runners return TOP.   That would eliminate the behavior pretty quick.   If they're not willing to add the rule I have to conclude that, at this time, they're OK with Baez's actions...who knows, maybe we'll see an offseason change...or interpretation.

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Respectfully, this rule should not be changed and the softball rule should be changed to mirror baseball.

If F3 doesn't know to simply step on the bag to render B/R out and then chases B/R nearly back to the plate and still doesn't get him out...B/R deserves the opportunity to let this play out.

A better question is...Why does B/R get the opportunity to advance to 1B after swinging at a pitch that would have been called a ball and is so far out of the strike zone that F2 can't catch it?

~Dawg

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1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Respectfully, this rule should not be changed and the softball rule should be changed to mirror baseball.

If F3 doesn't know to simply step on the bag to render B/R out and then chases B/R nearly back to the plate and still doesn't get him out...B/R deserves the opportunity to let this play out.

A better question is...Why does B/R get the opportunity to advance to 1B after swinging at a pitch that would have been called a ball and is so far out of the strike zone that F2 can't catch it?

~Dawg

I can understand why you wouldn't want it in baseball, but it's in softball for good reasons...with more bunting and slapping, and the short base paths for runners to advance, it's common for F4 or F3 to play well in front of first base, to field the ball 30+ feet from first base but 10-15 feet from b/r, depending on their progress from the box.   It's often the better play for F3 to continue in and tag B/R, rather than throw to first, in order to have a better chance at keeping R2/R3 in check.  Softball put the rule in to prevent B/R from bunting to said F3 and then entice them to chase B/R back to the plate.

 

To your second question...if he struck at the pitch it's a strike...do you really want the umpire now deciding on whether or not the batter really meant it when he swung at a really SH*#ty pitch?   Or if the batter ever had a chance to hit the pitch?   You really want to have to add that to your repertoire of things you need to judge?  Is that a hill you're prepared to die on in a game when you're telling a batter "no, that's a ball"...or worse...telling the defense "sorry, it's not really a strike" only to see the batter trip and never reach first base?

He gets the opportunity because he's savvy, and the pitcher made a mistake.

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@beerguy55, I forgot to take my crazy pills this morning. How 'bout you be a bud and gimme a break? We're all brothers here...

What I was proposing was, if strike 3 is called or the batter swings at strike 3 and the catcher doesn't catch the pitch...the batter should be out with no opportunity to advance to first base.

Try not to hurt yourself next time...and thank you for the additional context on softball. It's clear that rule is needed for the reasons you mentioned.

~Dawg

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4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Respectfully, this rule should not be changed and the softball rule should be changed to mirror baseball.

If F3 doesn't know to simply step on the bag to render B/R out and then chases B/R nearly back to the plate and still doesn't get him out...B/R deserves the opportunity to let this play out.

A better question is...Why does B/R get the opportunity to advance to 1B after swinging at a pitch that would have been called a ball and is so far out of the strike zone that F2 can't catch it?

~Dawg

Because in the earl;y days of baseball, the batter became a runner on all strike 3s (well, the number has changed over the years, but...).  And, in early years with the mush ball and the cathcer playing back and fielding the pitch on a bounce, the out was not assured.

Then, catchers got gloves, moved up, and the out was so obvious that the play was boring, so the rule was changed to the batter becomes a runner on all D3Ks (FED words it differently, but the effect its the same).

But, catcher's got smart and started not catching the 3K when there was a runner at first, so they could get an easy double play.  So, the rule was changed again, to today's rule.

If you want to suggest that the rule be changed again, go ahead -- but you should at least know the history of it before you do so.

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1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

What I was proposing was, if strike 3 is called or the batter swings at strike 3 and the catcher doesn't catch the pitch...the batter should be out with no opportunity to advance to first base.

OK - I thought you meant only in those scenarios where there's no way F2 was going to catch it....you clearly said "swung at a pitch that would have been a ball"; catchers do drop pitches that went through the strike zone...and batters miss pitches that went through the strike zone.

Historically, a strikeout was ALWAYS a putout by the catcher (or an assist to F3) - in that you didn't want a pitcher totally dominating the play (at one point curve balls were illegal), the batter still had a chance to advance, even after three (or more) strikes...and has simply evolved, from a time where catchers didn't have masks, pads or gloves,  and also stood several feet behind the batter (with the umpire sitting on a rocking chair nearby) to what we see today.

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On 6/1/2021 at 10:00 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Respectfully, this rule should not be changed and the softball rule should be changed to mirror baseball.

If F3 doesn't know to simply step on the bag to render B/R out and then chases B/R nearly back to the plate and still doesn't get him out...B/R deserves the opportunity to let this play out.

A better question is...Why does B/R get the opportunity to advance to 1B after swinging at a pitch that would have been called a ball and is so far out of the strike zone that F2 can't catch it?

~Dawg

I am sorry if I misread the tone of that ... but that first line is the exact problematic thinking that leads to these scenarios (and frustrates the hell out of me).  "Grumble, grumble WE ARE RIGHT DAMNIT grumble grumble.  Quit thinking and causing problems, kid.  Grumble grumble BASEBALL grumble grumble.  Wait, are you crying?!"

Maybe ... just maybe ... softball has it right.  Maybe, just maybe, runners are NOT intended to run backwards unless they are retreating for a justified reason to a legally attainable base.  (Despite the claims of so many here.)

You guys can roll your eyes at this next question as it is somewhat tongue-in-cheek ... but since my son is in the house playing his video game baseball game it got me to thinking: how do we get the runners to run backwards on those games?  I mean, so many here are claiming it is legal and intended and all ... 

Dawg, I do appreciate your questioning of the UK3 rules ... the whole 2 outs exception never made sense to me.

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On 6/1/2021 at 1:00 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

@beerguy55, I forgot to take my crazy pills this morning. How 'bout you be a bud and gimme a break? We're all brothers here...

What I was proposing was, if strike 3 is called or the batter swings at strike 3 and the catcher doesn't catch the pitch...the batter should be out with no opportunity to advance to first base.

Try not to hurt yourself next time...and thank you for the additional context on softball. It's clear that rule is needed for the reasons you mentioned.

~Dawg

 

This one is strictly tongue-in-cheek ...

Or there is the Atlantic League way ... the batter can run at any point.  

 

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@The Man in Blue,no offense taken.

I am not someone who believes the rules of softball should simply mirror those of baseball wholesale. The two sports share some similarities. But, when you take some time to watch how the two games are laid out, played, coached and umpired...it's easy to see that they are truly two different sports each requiring their own rule sets.

The smaller field of play in softball clearly does not lend itself to runners retreating towards bases they have already legally acquired.

~Dawg

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On 6/1/2021 at 9:38 AM, beerguy55 said:

The solution is simple...add the "softball" rule..."When he steps back toward home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder"...b/r out, all runners return TOP.   That would eliminate the behavior pretty quick.   If they're not willing to add the rule I have to conclude that, at this time, they're OK with Baez's actions...who knows, maybe we'll see an offseason change...or interpretation.

Why is this needed? Want to curtail “the mayhem”? Have / tell / train / instruct / drill your F3 just touch the frikken base, fer crying out loud!

I love baseball, because for the most part, the Rules don’t prevent stupidity, they weed it out by exposing stupidity.*

 

* - with the exception of NFHS, which still deifies the PU as some god-like UIC, insulating stupid calls as “final say”.

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20 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Why is this needed? Want to curtail “the mayhem”? Have / tell / train / instruct / drill your F3 just touch the frikken base, fer crying out loud!

Usually yes...but let's make the play only have one out...and have F3 a little further down the line away from the base.  The question is whether we want B/R running backwards - ie. is that really baseball.   If MLB is fine with it (and based on the rules, I'd say they are) then nothing to change...if not, then the softball rule is the solution.

 

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

ou guys can roll your eyes at this next question as it is somewhat tongue-in-cheek ... but since my son is in the house playing his video game baseball game it got me to thinking: how do we get the runners to run backwards on those games?  I mean, so many here are claiming it is legal and intended and all ... 

Not sure about recent versions, but I'm pretty sure in old 80's Atari versions you could.   I think more recent video game versions have removed all control of baserunning.

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Dawg, I do appreciate your questioning of the UK3 rules ... the whole 2 outs exception never made sense to me.

It's for the same reason there's no IFF with two outs.

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