Senior Umpire Mechanics Issue

[Guest MechaMan]

Recently shelled out the cash for all this new official umpire equipment so I've been lurking the forums in an attempt to take my officiating more seriously. I've been watching a bunch of videos on 2 man mechanics and rules interpretations, so it really surprised me to here this from the senior umpire I have worked with and got along so well with for 100+ games over the past year.  Note that this is a relatively experienced umpire, 10+ years experience with multiple high school playoff and championship games under his belt. Again, we have had many games together and have a good understanding of each other's shortcomings on the field (for example my lack of rotation to third or watching or tag-ups due to weak mechanics) Last weekend during pregame for a game in which I would be PU and excited to apply my new mechanics , I started asking him about my responsibilities and rotations from behind the plate.

What surprised me was when we discussed fly balls, particularly with runners on. He explicitly told me that with less than 2 outs, PU has ALL fly balls to the outfield. Then with 2 outs, he basically explained the V/cone mechanic where I have all fly balls that carry the left and right fielders towards the foul lines, but again ONLY with two outs. As a result, tag-up responsibilities are completely different from what I have seen and faintly remember from some little league umpire clinic years ago.  I believe it was something like I rotate up the third baseline to get an angle on the catch/ no catch and seeing the 3rd base tag up, while he would take the tag-ups on 1st and second. 

 

It seems like all the two-man mechanic material from the past 5-10 years utilizes the "V/Cone" so it really surprised me to see his borderline disgusted reaction to the idea of the base umpire calling fly balls. Now using his system wouldn't be the biggest issue in the world to switch to considering I never systematically approached tag-ups or using the V in the first place, it just concerns me because I know I would like to start umpiring more seriously, and am set to join and train with a highschool association over the summer, more than likely using the V mechanic. I was just wondering if any of you on the site utilize these catch/no catch responsibilities or where this may have originated from.

[Kevin_K]

If your partner has had "10+ years experience with multiple high school playoff and championship games under his belt" he would be using the standard mechanics on a 90' baseball field.

In the 2 man system, when the BU is in B or C, the standard is that he will have primary responsibility on the catch/no catch on balls hit from the left fielder to the right fielder, without regard to the number of outs. Variations on secondary responsibilities like tag ups may vary depending on any number of circumstances, but the idea that the PU has primary responsibility on all fly balls with lass than 2 outs is not in any mechanics book I have ever read nor is it anything I have ever learned in a clinic.

It sounds like a variation on the mechanics on the little field where PU has responsibility for fly balls in most circumstances because the BU may be moving from outside the bases to inside the bases to get in position for plays on the infield.

I would hope in those many playoff and championship games he was using standard mechanics. If he wasn't, he is fortunate that there was nothing crazy like F8 diving at a sinking liner and he left that call to the PU. I am quite sure that such a play, especially if the ball found its way out of the fielder's glove, would likely set a HC on edge if the guy 50 feet away deferred to the guy 140 feet away.

[noumpere]

I would ask others in your area as well, just to be sure your area hasn't standardized on something that isn't standard.

[Guest MechaMan]

I definitely should clarify this is 13u baseball, sub 90', but B and C position are still inside the bases. Does this system make more sense now? 

 

And its funny you mention that atch situation because that happened the very next game. Fly ball with runner's on 1st and 3rd so i'm staying home, goes directly to center where the 2nd baseman is blocking my view and makes a shoe string catch. I immediately think "oh **** i have to have all fly balls but theres no way I can call that", but thank goodness it was 2 outs so he was looking for the catch otherwise I would have been in a tough position. His response afterwards was that I should move up the third baseline to look for the catch. Is this system warranted given the new information on field size 

[noumpere]

The standard is that when BU is inside, BU has the V.

YMMV.

[BLWizzRanger]

I have heard something different also.

I was told by one partner that fly balls to F7 or F9, the PU should take tag ups on the base, if occupied, that the PU would be looking toward on the fly ball.  For example, a fly ball to F9, the PU would take the tag up for first base, if occupied, no matter if there is a R3.  If fly ball to F7 and 3rd is occupied, PU would take the tag at 3rd.

I really don't know how the BU in B or C has a better view of R3's tag up on a fly ball to F9. 

The partner has a ton of LL games but this is his first year doing HS.  Is this something he learned in LL or is he a rebel (my vote is a rebel)?

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I have heard something different also.

I was told by one partner that fly balls to F7 or F9, the PU should take tag ups on the base, if occupied, that the PU would be looking toward on the fly ball.  For example, a fly ball to F9, the PU would take the tag up for first base, if occupied, no matter if there is a R3.  If fly ball to F7 and 3rd is occupied, PU would take the tag at 3rd.

I really don't know how the BU in B or C has a better view of R3's tag up on a fly ball to F9. 

The partner has a ton of LL games but this is his first year doing HS.  Is this something he learned in LL or is he a rebel (my vote is a rebel)?

Standard:  PU has the tagup at third.  A good BU can help by swiveling his head.

 

Again, you don't want to be the odd-man out; use the mechanics (no matter how different they may be) during your first x years in your area / at that level.

[aaluck]

On a 60' field starting outside I have no problem with PU getting everything. On a 90' with BU inside you (PU) do not have the V as the BU is 70-100 feet closer to the calls in the V. Not sure what he would be telling you this, as stated above.

[aaluck]

17 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Again, you don't want to be the odd-man out; use the mechanics (no matter how different they may be) during your first x years in your area / at that level.

I do agree with this statement, as long as its not a rule issue. No fans or coaches know the difference.

[LRZ]

This discussion highlights the importance of a good pre-game, which is too often, sadly, omitted. If the two umpires are on the same page, the mechanics are reinforced; if they are not in agreement, they can iron out the disagreement before issues arise during play. If one umpire is that "here's how we're going to do it" guy, at least the other umpire knows what to expect.

[BLWizzRanger]

Standard:  PU has the tagup at third.  A good BU can help by swiveling his head.
 
Again, you don't want to be the odd-man out; use the mechanics (no matter how different they may be) during your first x years in your area / at that level.

No, I checked around. He is the only one who uses this mechanic and I did defer to him on this for that game. I questioned him about it but, he was adamant this was the best way. Only after thinking about this more, I will not be suggesting this with anyone else.



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[SH0102]

I have learned some things that are really good in practice but either not in or once in a while in complete contrast to the manuals that we cover before every 3-man game, and even some on 2-man (especially R1 only and bunt, who has play at third if R1 goes there)

But, in this situation, your partners practice makes no sense.  With less than 2 outs, any fly ball to the V will usually have the runners tagging or stopping halfway.  What is happening on the bases that is so important he needs to watch while you take the catch? 
 

The only thing I can come up with about 2 outs vs less is the absence of any tag ups.  He must feel he has to prioritize tag ups so you get the catch. But a good BU will always have the catch and R2 in his vision (sometimes R1 depending on where ball was hit) and you do the best you can with R1.  2-man has lots of holes, tag ups and touches being the big one bc you’ve got multiple runners and a ball that has to be watched and only 2 sets of eyes.

Next time you work with him, here is your “cop out” so you don’t sound like you’re saying anything bad about him.

”(Jim), I really want to start doing HS next year, and I’m going to be evaluated on the mechanics in the manual, so I need to start practicing those”.  This can lead into a “natural” discussion about why he does what he does, hear him out, but tell him you need to do manual mechanics so he has the V.

Oh, and you said R1 and R3 you stay home, you actually will rotate to third on a hit (not caught) for a play there on R1, head home if there is no play (he isn’t coming) or he likely will go for home.

You stay home on a fly ball where R3 is tagging and line up tag.  If dropped, head for third and do your best to peek back at touch, but again, this is a hole in 2-man

[MadMax]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:42 AM, SH0102 said:

on 2-man (especially R1 only and bunt, who has play at third if R1 goes there)

This is not (and I will personally say never) a rotation. Not only did the ball not leave the infield – which is a trigger for the rotation of PU to 3B – but it’s a bunt, which keeps the ball, BR, and fielders all in close proximity to each other. As a PU, you _must_ judge Fair/Foul (you’re the only one who can in 2-man, with R1), you must be aware of potential OBS or INT, or tangle/untangle, and, with it being a bunt (or any “sawed-off” ball put in play), you are the only person on the field that can properly see and judge RLI. 

So why are you in such a hurry to get to 3B???!!! It’s not a rotation! This shouldn’t even need to be pre-gamed. If it’s an issue, it’s only because some PUs are entirely overzealous on rotating to 3B. 

On 5/13/2021 at 10:03 AM, Guest MechaMan said:

I was just wondering if any of you on the site utilize these catch/no catch responsibilities or where this may have originated from.

It reads like the UIQ (umpire-in-question) is self-generating his own mechanics. Sometimes this is borne out of (known) limitations (injury, temporary condition(s), permanent physical limitation, etc), but this is rare. 

On 5/13/2021 at 12:31 PM, noumpere said:

use the mechanics (no matter how different they may be) during your first x years in your area / at that level.

Noumpere has sage advice; however, you should know the proper, more widely-known positioning, signals, and mechanics for those eventual games at higher levels, other venues, when working with transfers / “guest” umpires, and being evaluated. 

Lemme tell ya, here in Phoenix (and Arizona, by and large), if you try and run your own positioning or mechanics beyond a game or two, without justifiable reason, you’re not going to last long. Partners will grow frustrated working with you, and there are participants who know where an umpire should be and what their responsibilities are. That’s at all levels, too, from MLB ST on down to local Little League. What’s amazing is that the umpires, for the most part, will work such a variety of games per day. If you don’t “fall in” and perform to a consistent set of protocols – trying to maintain your own – then you’re not going to succeed. 

 

[Replacematt]

5 minutes ago, MadMax said:

This is not (and I will personally say never) a rotation. Not only did the ball not leave the infield – which is a trigger for the rotation of PU to 3B – but it’s a bunt, which keeps the ball, BR, and fielders all in close proximity to each other. As a PU, you _must_ judge Fair/Foul (you’re the only one who can in 2-man, with R1), you must be aware of potential OBS or INT, or tangle/untangle, and, with it being a bunt (or any “sawed-off” ball put in play), you are the only person on the field that can properly see and judge RLI. 

So why are you in such a hurry to get to 3B???!!! It’s not a rotation! This shouldn’t even need to be pre-gamed. If it’s an issue, it’s only because some PUs are entirely overzealous on rotating to 3B. 

This is a rotation in both pro and CCA mechanics.

[MadMax]

38 minutes ago, Matt said:

This is a rotation in both pro and CCA mechanics.

On a bunt? Whatever for? 

In 2-man, with R1, a Batter lays a bunt up the 1BL, and you’re telling me that PU is directed / expected to Rotate to 3B??? 
 

At collegiate and pro speeds? 

[Replacematt]

4 minutes ago, MadMax said:

On a bunt? Whatever for? 

In 2-man, with R1, a Batter lays a bunt up the 1BL, and you’re telling me that PU is directed / expected to Rotate to 3B??? 
 

At collegiate and pro speeds? 

In both sets of mechanics, with R1 attempting to advance to 3B on a ball in the infield, PU rotates unless there is F/F or RLI to cover. Contrary to what you stated, the ball leaving the infield is not the trigger to rotate--it's the absence of F/F or RLI, and even more contrary to your exclamation, this is not only a rotation, but one that is default.

 

[SH0102]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

On a bunt? Whatever for? 

In 2-man, with R1, a Batter lays a bunt up the 1BL, and you’re telling me that PU is directed / expected to Rotate to 3B??? 
 

At collegiate and pro speeds? 

I was going to say that in NCAA this is a rotation (but Matt already drove that home for me)

At an NCAA camp I went to, the evaluator said “any good base umpire can still cover third on this play” but then also told us “being new to ncaa, you will be evaluated based on the manual so do the rotation”.

So you can see why I said to discuss it in pre-game.

But, and I won’t bold it and italicize it like you did, it is actually a rotation. Just not in HS

[Jimurray]

36 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I was going to say that in NCAA this is a rotation (but Matt already drove that home for me)

At an NCAA camp I went to, the evaluator said “any good base umpire can still cover third on this play” but then also told us “being new to ncaa, you will be evaluated based on the manual so do the rotation”.

So you can see why I said to discuss it in pre-game.

But, and I won’t bold it and italicize it like you did, it is actually a rotation. Just not in HS

Wouldn’t it make sense even in HS for the PU to cover 3B if R1 was safe and advancing to 3B. PU is already in the vicinity (absent any F/F on the line) to observe the slide at 2B. 

[maven]

31 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Wouldn’t it make sense even in HS for the PU to cover 3B if R1 was safe and advancing to 3B. PU is already in the vicinity (absent any F/F on the line) to observe the slide at 2B. 

 

[agdz59]

6 hours ago, maven said:

 

Heeeeey - where did you get that picture of me?