Bases Loaded - Ball 4

[goody14]

Pretty sure I am overthinking this.

9U, OBR ruleset (don't think it would matter). Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter receives ball 4. Runner from 3rd misses home plate. 

Pitcher gets ball back and time is never called. Defensive coaches tell pitcher to run over and tag R3. He does so before the runner gets to the dugout. We have an out here right. 

But, it did bring to mind an interesting secondary question for me:

At what point is the runner from 3rd in jeopardy of being called out on appeal? Is it as soon as he is one step past home plate without touching it? Do we use the same criteria as a normal play at home - if he is around the plate, then he has to be tagged but once a distance away, the base can be tagged on the appeal.

[SH0102]

35 minutes ago, goody14 said:

Pretty sure I am overthinking this.

9U, OBR ruleset (don't think it would matter). Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter receives ball 4. Runner from 3rd misses home plate. 

Pitcher gets ball back and time is never called. Defensive coaches tell pitcher to run over and tag R3. He does so before the runner gets to the dugout. We have an out here right. 

But, it did bring to mind an interesting secondary question for me:

At what point is the runner from 3rd in jeopardy of being called out on appeal? Is it as soon as he is one step past home plate without touching it? Do we use the same criteria as a normal play at home - if he is around the plate, then he has to be tagged but once a distance away, the base can be tagged on the appeal.

Definitely not as soon as they missed the plate since this is an award of a base and missing it must be appealed.

I would surmise that once the runner has “abandoned” the plate they are subject to being put out on appeal.

That is, when they have left the dirt circle (or plate vicinity if there isn’t a defined circle) and are headed back to their dugout

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, goody14 said:

At what point is the runner from 3rd in jeopardy of being called out on appeal? Is it as soon as he is one step past home plate without touching it? Do we use the same criteria as a normal play at home - if he is around the plate, then he has to be tagged but once a distance away, the base can be tagged on the appeal.

Yes, if R3 hasn't made an attempt to return to the plate.

[ArchAngel72]

No not 3rd

The plate

Rule 5.09(b)(12) Comment: This rule applies only where runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase him. It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, runner must be tagged.

[goody14]

Makes sense. The broader question is "does a walk forcing in a run constitute an ordinary play" or is it is something special because it is an award.

Seems like we use the same thinking no matter walk or hit.

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

6 hours ago, goody14 said:

Makes sense. The broader question is "does a walk forcing in a run constitute an ordinary play" or is it is something special because it is an award.

Seems like we use the same thinking no matter walk or hit.

 

Runners are still required to touch the bases in order, be it a hit or an award.

[Replacematt]

8 hours ago, ShaunH said:

Definitely not as soon as they missed the plate since this is an award of a base and missing it must be appealed.

This is incorrect. As soon as the base is missed, it can be appealed. Being that it is home, there are different variables at play as to how it can be done, but once the runner has completely gone beyond the plate, they could be tagged on appeal.

[SH0102]

20 minutes ago, Matt said:

This is incorrect. As soon as the base is missed, it can be appealed. Being that it is home, there are different variables at play as to how it can be done, but once the runner has completely gone beyond the plate, they could be tagged on appeal.

Okay...so everytime there is a balk, or walk with bases loaded, or ball out of play scoring a run, or home run, I am going to hand the ball to the catcher and say "hang on to this and be ready to tag the runner the instant his foot steps over the plate, even if he realized it 0.2 seconds after his step and toe dragged his back foot across the plate, then I can call him out and show everyone what a good umpire I am because it's the rule".

[Replacematt]

20 minutes ago, ShaunH said:

Okay...so everytime there is a balk, or walk with bases loaded, or ball out of play scoring a run, or home run, I am going to hand the ball to the catcher and say "hang on to this and be ready to tag the runner the instant his foot steps over the plate, even if he realized it 0.2 seconds after his step and toe dragged his back foot across the plate, then I can call him out and show everyone what a good umpire I am because it's the rule".

In two of those, they can't appeal because the ball isn't live, and in the other, the catcher already has the ball. So, your irrelevant and incorrect point aside, it couldn't happen as you are making it out to be. In that one case, if that runner misses the plate and that catcher is observant enough to do the immediate appeal, you had better call it. 

I've noticed that you've complained multiple times about people making you out to be an idiot where no one has. I think you are overly defensive and argumentative, so stop taking things personally and looking for fights. I say that because I will assume that you didn't mean what you said, because if you did, it shows a lack of understanding of two fundamental rules.

[SH0102]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

In two of those, they can't appeal because the ball isn't live, and in the other, the catcher already has the ball. So, your irrelevant and incorrect point aside, it couldn't happen as you are making it out to be. In that one case, if that runner misses the plate and that catcher is observant enough to do the immediate appeal, you had better call it. 

I've noticed that you've complained multiple times about people making you out to be an idiot where no one has. I think you are overly defensive and argumentative, so stop taking things personally and looking for fights. I say that because I will assume that you didn't mean what you said, because if you did, it shows a lack of understanding of two fundamental rules.

Yes, I could have added a sarcasm alert message or emoji I suppose

[SH0102]

My point was that I am picturing a player like Fernando Tatis, who kisses his hands and points to the heavens on home runs as he crosses the plate.

If a guy scores the tying run on this walk, and as he trots home does this, steps over the plate, and half a second later turns around and touches home...literally stepped over with one foot and immediately spins around and touches home, you're banging him out if the catcher touches him...

I guess you are justified by rule, but that sure seems against the spirit of what we are trying to do.

I remember being taught to be a "rules expert" without being a "rules lawyer".  If the guy clearly has no idea he missed, he is heading back to his dugout, or his teammate is yelling at him to "go touch it, go touch it!", then I am with you 100%.

[Replacematt]

8 hours ago, ShaunH said:

My point was that I am picturing a player like Fernando Tatis, who kisses his hands and points to the heavens on home runs as he crosses the plate.

If a guy scores the tying run on this walk, and as he trots home does this, steps over the plate, and half a second later turns around and touches home...literally stepped over with one foot and immediately spins around and touches home, you're banging him out if the catcher touches him...

I guess you are justified by rule, but that sure seems against the spirit of what we are trying to do.

I remember being taught to be a "rules expert" without being a "rules lawyer".  If the guy clearly has no idea he missed, he is heading back to his dugout, or his teammate is yelling at him to "go touch it, go touch it!", then I am with you 100%.

You were never taught that because you obviously don't know the difference. You have to call a runner out when they have missed the base and a proper appeal is made. There's no gray area. Why would you reward the player that messed up and take away an out from the team that caught it?

You're relatively new here and came on talking about your college experience. I'm gonna be blunt--what you have said (in multiple statements in that time) doesn't match what I would expect from one. Furthermore, if this ever happens to you, there's a good chance it'll be a on an NCAA video. I will tell you right now, calling it your way will have it be illustrated as an example of what not to do. 

[maven]

8 hours ago, ShaunH said:

I guess you are justified by rule, but that sure seems against the spirit of what we are trying to do.

A walk is the right to advance to the next base without liability to be put out by the defense.

It is not the right to miss a base, and the liability to be put out reinstates when he misses it. The window for an appeal opens instantly, and alert F2's—almost always the smartest player on the team, at least above HS JV—will take advantage.

If R3 can't be bothered to touch HP during his advance, why would you penalize the defense for noticing it?

[roothog66]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:45 PM, SH0102 said:

My point was that I am picturing a player like Fernando Tatis, who kisses his hands and points to the heavens on home runs as he crosses the plate.

If a guy scores the tying run on this walk, and as he trots home does this, steps over the plate, and half a second later turns around and touches home...literally stepped over with one foot and immediately spins around and touches home, you're banging him out if the catcher touches him...

I guess you are justified by rule, but that sure seems against the spirit of what we are trying to do.

I remember being taught to be a "rules expert" without being a "rules lawyer".  If the guy clearly has no idea he missed, he is heading back to his dugout, or his teammate is yelling at him to "go touch it, go touch it!", then I am with you 100%.

In the above scenario...tag him with what? The previously live ball is in the stands somewhere and any ball the catcher possesses isn't live until put in play by the HU.

[beerguy55]

7 minutes ago, roothog66 said:

In the above scenario...tag him with what? The previously live ball is in the stands somewhere and any ball the catcher possesses isn't live until put in play by the HU.

in OBR it would be impossible.  In FED (and most/all softball rule sets) a dead ball verbal appeal can be made.  I assume that could be done immediately after the BR steps over/past home plate, with both feet.

[roothog66]

15 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

in OBR it would be impossible.  In FED (and most/all softball rule sets) a dead ball verbal appeal can be made.  I assume that could be done immediately after the BR steps over/past home plate, with both feet.

Sure. I was only addressing his situation where he'd have the catcher "touch" the runner as soon as he stepped over the plate. Yeah, I guess you could make a verbal appeal, but I'm assuming this would not go over well and that FED rules have some definition of abandonment, otherwise, there'd never be a reason for a catcher to try and tag out a runner that slides past the plate on a contested play, he'd simply have to just scream out an appeal to the HU immediatley after the slide.

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, roothog66 said:

Sure. I was only addressing his situation where he'd have the catcher "touch" the runner as soon as he stepped over the plate. Yeah, I guess you could make a verbal appeal, but I'm assuming this would not go over well and that FED rules have some definition of abandonment, otherwise, there'd never be a reason for a catcher to try and tag out a runner that slides past the plate on a contested play, he'd simply have to just scream out an appeal to the HU immediatley after the slide.

That would not be inconsistent with some of the other anomalies in FED.

For example, if you commit an infraction and have advanced a base when the ball becomes dead, you're screwed. Which is why they had to put the exception in about fielders intentionally throwing the ball out of play to prevent runners from fixing their mistakes. A lot of words for a stupid concept that doesn't need to differ from everyone else.