Another FPSR question

[BLWizzRanger]

This is one play in my memory from my last game. Trying to get my definition of 'straight into the base' standardize.

A girthy R1 slides into 2B.  His girth straddles the imaginary line between straight into the bag and to the right of the bag. He doesn't overslide but is able to touch the bag 'above his elbows' (think triceps - so he is laying on his left side just to the right of the bag).  So this is the last picture I have of him in my memory and because so, I think I might have booted this even though I have never made a mistake.

My question is if I can notice his lead foot hitting the front of the base first, no matter if it hits the middle, left or right front part of the bag, should I consider this 'straight into the bag' even though he ends up in the picture I tried to describe above? A hook slide is illegal in my view. 

Diving into the bag here is not considered though I would caveat is the hand hitting the bag must be out stretched straight in front (over the head) of the runner and not come to his side at any time during his slide unless the torso is touching the base. I have yet to see an idiot slide headfirst while trying to break up a DP.  But, I digress....

I am trying to equate this to the pitchers plate where all the pitcher has to do is touch the plate - anywhere on or in front of - to be legal in his delivery. So if my slider can touch the front of the base with his lead foot or with his hand, stay on the base with his torso aligned with the edge of the bag, I should considered that straight into the bag.

That is what my standard will be, but, tell me why this should be reconsidered. 

Thanks.

[maven]

You're making this too hard. 'Straight into the bag' entails that the runner remain on the line between 1B and 2B. I'm not picturing what your runner did, so I won't say anything about that particular play.

And this has nothing to do with the pitching restrictions: FPSR is a safety rule, and nobody is endangered by the hybrid position. FPSR should thus be interpreted more strictly.

[SH0102]

The rule book does not account for “girth”.  If the fielder is contacted outside the bag (outside the edges) in the “protected area”, it’s a violation.

A “girthy” runner who is not trying to bust up the DP has the option to peel off away from the fielder or slide to the inside of the bag (if fielder is outside)

[BLWizzRanger]

11 hours ago, maven said:

You're making this too hard. 'Straight into the bag' entails that the runner remain on the line between 1B and 2B. I'm not picturing what your runner did, so I won't say anything about that particular play.

And this has nothing to do with the pitching restrictions: FPSR is a safety rule, and nobody is endangered by the hybrid position. FPSR should thus be interpreted more strictly.

Maybe I am.  We will see.

But, I wasn't comparing FPSR to the hybrid position.  I was comparing the 'front of the bag' with the entire pitching plate.  If you can contact the 24 inch pitching plate at any point on it and still be legal, than you should be able to touch any point on front of the 15 inch bag and still be considered to slide directly into the bag.

[Replacematt]

18 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Maybe I am.  We will see.

But, I wasn't comparing FPSR to the hybrid position.  I was comparing the 'front of the bag' with the entire pitching plate.  If you can contact the 24 inch pitching plate at any point on it and still be legal, than you should be able to touch any point on front of the 15 inch bag and still be considered to slide directly into the bag.

You're missing the point. Two separate rules, two separate intents. Don't compare them.

[SH0102]

As I said, I’d stop worrying about whether they touched front of the bag, and watch the entire slide.  The fielder is protected, from everything, outside the width of the bag.

Most fielders take the throw and take one step away from bag. If they do this, they can not be contacted, period

[Biscuit]

For both FPSR rules (FED and NCAA), the runner must slide with everything, legs, trunk, and arms, in a straight line between the two bases (usually first and second, but applies elsewhere). If any part of him is to the right of the bag (assuming that's where the fielder is) he is liable to be called for an FPSR violation. 

[Rich Ives]

15 hours ago, Biscuit said:

For both FPSR rules (FED and NCAA), the runner must slide with everything, legs, trunk, and arms, in a straight line between the two bases (usually first and second, but applies elsewhere). If any part of him is to the right of the bag (assuming that's where the fielder is) he is liable to be called for an FPSR violation. 

Seriously?  People are more than 15" wide. Some part is going to be beyond the edge.

[SH0102]

49 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Seriously?  People are more than 15" wide. Some part is going to be beyond the edge.

Rich, I think if the runner slides straight into the bag, meaning their feet/legs go straight into the bag, and their body is in line, and their arms aren't stretched to the side, or one leg goes to bag and other is sticking out, noone is going to penalize a kid for being more than 15" thick.

A runner's momentum can carry them through the bag in NCAA, if a kid slides legally straight into the base and in going through the base, their rump hanging over the bag contacts the fielders foot, no one in their right mind is calling that.

It's a safety rule...don't stick things out, don't slide to the side of the base, don't slide perpendicular to the baseline (belly hits bag, head and legs on either side of it), don't kick or slash at the fielder, don't slap the fielder with your arms.  Just make a slide into the base and we're all fine

[Rich Ives]

10 minutes ago, ShaunH said:

Rich, I think if the runner slides straight into the bag, meaning their feet/legs go straight into the bag, and their body is in line, and their arms aren't stretched to the side, or one leg goes to bag and other is sticking out, noone is going to penalize a kid for being more than 15" thick.

A runner's momentum can carry them through the bag in NCAA, if a kid slides legally straight into the base and in going through the base, their rump hanging over the bag contacts the fielders foot, no one in their right mind is calling that.

It's a safety rule...don't stick things out, don't slide to the side of the base, don't slide perpendicular to the baseline (belly hits bag, head and legs on either side of it), don't kick or slash at the fielder, don't slap the fielder with your arms.  Just make a slide into the base and we're all fine

Did you read what Biscuit wrote?

[Biscuit]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Seriously?  People are more than 15" wide. Some part is going to be beyond the edge.

In practice, I agree. If he is going straight in and his hip is a little outside the 15" when contact is made, I'm not calling a violation. But by the rule, yes, you could call a violation on that. But you'd better start thinking of a new hobby.

[BLWizzRanger]

12 hours ago, Biscuit said:

In practice, I agree. If he is going straight in and his hip is a little outside the 15" when contact is made, I'm not calling a violation. But by the rule, yes, you could call a violation on that. But you'd better start thinking of a new hobby.

This is what I was trying to get at when I mentioned 'girth' in the original post.  How can I judge it is just girth over the line or a violation of not going straight into the bag.  If I can determine that the extended front foot hit the front of the bag I am judging he went straight into it. Other violations not withstanding.  Simple. 

I guess I will know when I see it...  Thanks!

[maven]

The issue has nothing to do with the size of either the runner or the base. It's about the runner's path, which the rule requires to be straight into (relative to the line connecting the bases) and not past the base.

Any otherwise legal slide that satisfies that description and has no obviously intentional extra-curricular elements will be legal under FPSR.

[BLWizzRanger]

4 hours ago, maven said:

The issue has nothing to do with the size of either the runner or the base. It's about the runner's path, which the rule requires to be straight into (relative to the line connecting the bases) and not past the base.

Any otherwise legal slide that satisfies that description and has no obviously intentional extra-curricular elements will be legal under FPSR.

Honest question, what is your definition of past the base?

[maven]

10 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Honest question, what is your definition of past the base?

I started to type a dismissive response to this, when it occurred to me that "past the base" can mean different things for different rules.

For example: for the BR to be "past the base" at 1B, everything has to be past the base, entire body.

For the FPSR, whose primary aim is to protect the fielder (esp. at 2B), "past the base" means any part of the runner continuing along the runner's line of approach and extending beyond the back edge of the base (for 2B, the LF side of the base).

Note that this becomes a problem only when the runner makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder. Merely oversliding is not illegal, even under FPSR. 2-32-2c

[BLWizzRanger]

4 hours ago, maven said:

For example: for the BR to be "past the base" at 1B, everything has to be past the base, entire body.

For the FPSR, whose primary aim is to protect the fielder (esp. at 2B), "past the base" means any part of the runner continuing along the runner's line of approach and extending beyond the back edge of the base (for 2B, the LF side of the base).

Note that this becomes a problem only when the runner makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder. Merely oversliding is not illegal, even under FPSR. 2-32-2c

OK, so, even with 2-25-1, overrunning and oversliding, 'allows his momentum to carry him past the base so that he loses contact with it' (aka, through the bag) is not applicable because of the lessor requirement of going 'beyond' (past the base but could still have contact) the back edge of the base to call FPSR (while affecting the fielder).  

 

On 4/22/2021 at 9:52 AM, BLWizzRanger said:

He doesn't overslide but is able to touch the bag 'above his elbows'

  So my original statement was this above.  I booted it because I thought oversliding was one of the requirements and hence, my question about sliding straight into the bag.  So since I judged him to slide straight into the bag, it was still FPSR because he went beyond the base to affect the fielder.

I think that most of you said this in some form above. So I thank you. 

As for the other comments about girth, I knew 'girth' didn't matter in and of itself. You could still have an anorexic slide directly into the base and still go over the imaginary side line there. Girth was only mentioned to say there is no way a person can slide directly into the bag, touching the right front side of the bag 5.45 inches from drop dead center and keep their body from crossing the line.  Thank you to @Biscuit and @Rich Ives for saying what I was trying to say.

Comparing touching the front of the bag to touching the front of the pitchers plate, caused way more grief than expected. It was a simple comparison, nothing more, nothing less.

Anyways. Thanks again to all.

[Mudisfun]

Our Instructional Chair for OCBOA @grayhawkcreated this training video for our association. It does a good job of explaining the rule, details the intent and then has multiple video examples to reinforce the points made in the narrative. All credit to Steve for putting this together.

 

 

 

[agdz59]

Great video.  A question about NFHS FPSR: can you call it if the fielder a) has released the ball or b) never attempted a throw before contact is made by the runner?  IOW, for purely safety reasons?

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Great video.  A question about NFHS FPSR: can you call it if the fielder a) has released the ball or b) never attempted a throw before contact is made by the runner?  IOW, for purely safety reasons?

Yes

[Mudisfun]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:50 PM, agdz59 said:

Great video.  A question about NFHS FPSR: can you call it if the fielder a) has released the ball or b) never attempted a throw before contact is made by the runner?  IOW, for purely safety reasons?

The rule is not about turning and or interfering with the DP; it is entirely intended to be a safety rule and as such the penalty is the DP.

[agdz59]

7 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

The rule is not about turning and or interfering with the DP; it is entirely intended to be a safety rule and as such the penalty is the DP.

That's what I thought but the rules aren't explicit and coaches always want to talk about 1) intent  or 2) the ball was already gone.

[maven]

2 hours ago, agdz59 said:

That's what I thought but the rules aren't explicit and coaches always want to talk about 1) intent  or 2) the ball was already gone.

Disagree. FPSR is tolerably clear, especially regarding the irrelevance of coach points (1) and (2) that you mention.