First HS Ejection in 6 years

[aaluck]

Not sure if others are experiencing the same but the coaches this year seem to be worse than ever. Had to eject a JV coach on Saturday--first HS coach I have ever ejected.

R2, R3, no outs, 0-0 on the RH batter. 9th grade kid squares to bunt--old school squares, chest facing second, back to the plate guy. Pitcher throws a wild pitch, which hits the kid in the left chest. My partner calls it a strike, which I get because he couldn't see what was going on up front. 3rd base coach asks him to please check with me, which he does.  I explained what I saw... I saw a kid with the bat around his belt level trying to prevent being hit. I explained that I didn't see any attempt to strike the ball.  He said okay since all I saw was his back we are going to put him on.

HC comes out of the dug out and starts in on my partner (second year guy). This goes on for at least a minute, following him all around screaming. Partner warns, it continues, then restricts to the bench. Coach refuses to leave. He looks like he finally is about to head to the dug out but then turns to me and starts in. I had already made up my mind what was going to happen if he did this, as I would have dumped him already if I were my partner.  Before he gets a word out I tell him to take it to the car. He looks shocked, I say it again. The school game administrator (who is also the AD) immediately came and got him.

As I shared earlier this seems to be a bigger problem this year than past.

 

[wolfe_man]

9 minutes ago, aaluck said:

.. a bigger problem this year than past.

 

My first game/scrimmage is tonight.  It's JV. I'll let you know.

Season starts next week for us.

FWIW, my only HS ejection remains a JV coach a couple years back.  

[cyclonehokiece]

From post lockdown last year it seemed to me that everyone seemed a bit more wound up.  I haven’t started yet but it seems that the winter didn’t calm anything down.

[SeeingEyeDog]

We started up youth travel in late June last year. After canceling the high school season everyone involved with 15U up to 18U was glad to have baseball back. It was a good time to be at the ballpark.

I've had four 18U games in 2021 and noticed things at the ballpark are back to pre-COVID conditions.

~Dawg

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

Not sure if others are experiencing the same but the coaches this year seem to be worse than ever. Had to eject a JV coach on Saturday--first HS coach I have ever ejected.

R2, R3, no outs, 0-0 on the RH batter. 9th grade kid squares to bunt--old school squares, chest facing second, back to the plate guy. Pitcher throws a wild pitch, which hits the kid in the left chest. My partner calls it a strike, which I get because he couldn't see what was going on up front. 3rd base coach asks him to please check with me, which he does.  I explained what I saw... I saw a kid with the bat around his belt level trying to prevent being hit. I explained that I didn't see any attempt to strike the ball.  He said okay since all I saw was his back we are going to put him on.

HC comes out of the dug out and starts in on my partner (second year guy). This goes on for at least a minute, following him all around screaming. Partner warns, it continues, then restricts to the bench. Coach refuses to leave. He looks like he finally is about to head to the dug out but then turns to me and starts in. I had already made up my mind what was going to happen if he did this, as I would have dumped him already if I were my partner.  Before he gets a word out I tell him to take it to the car. He looks shocked, I say it again. The school game administrator (who is also the AD) immediately came and got him.

As I shared earlier this seems to be a bigger problem this year than past.

 

Sounds good.  Did you let your partner know to check with you on a check swing in that situation and not just call it a strike?  That would be a good post game subject.

[aaluck]

26 minutes ago, umpstu said:

That would be a good post game subject.

We did talk about it. We went through a couple of things after the game.  He is an experienced basketball/football guy so he has no problem learning from others and mistakes.

[BT_Blue]

11 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

FWIW, my only HS ejection remains a JV coach a couple years back.  

I've gotten players. But I cant recall ever ejecting a high school coach. Of course, for about 10 years there, I was working in Los Angeles. They have (had?) a great little rule in LA Section that said "if a HC gets dumped, the game is over right then and there!" So you barely heard a peep from the coaches.

[aaluck]

10 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

I was working in Los Angeles. They have (had?) a great little rule in LA Section that said "if a HC gets dumped, the game is over right then and there!"

That should be implemented everywhere.  That would do away with all of this needless arguing.

[philaump]

My season starts Saturday

[Replacematt]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:07 PM, aaluck said:

We did talk about it. We went through a couple of things after the game.  He is an experienced basketball/football guy so he has no problem learning from others and mistakes.

In addition, keep in mind that this call, being a strike, cannot be changed by rule. He started the fire by making a call he couldn't see, but there's nothing you can do with the call itself once it's made--which is why it's imperative for him not to make it if he can't see it.

[aaluck]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

In addition, keep in mind that this call, being a strike, cannot be changed by rule. He started the fire by making a call he couldn't see, but there's nothing you can do with the call itself once it's made--which is why it's imperative for him not to make it if he can't see it.

Interesting.. I did not know that.  Is there a reason it cannot be changed (rule number FED)?

[tpatience]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:53 PM, BT_Blue said:

I've gotten players. But I cant recall ever ejecting a high school coach. Of course, for about 10 years there, I was working in Los Angeles. They have (had?) a great little rule in LA Section that said "if a HC gets dumped, the game is over right then and there!" So you barely heard a peep from the coaches.

That should be the rule everywhere for HS

[tpatience]

9 hours ago, aaluck said:

Interesting.. I did not know that.  Is there a reason it cannot be changed (rule number FED)?

Because once you call a strike on a swing or attempt, you can’t take it back 

[BT_Blue]

I'm not entirely sure that is correct. We can't change a strike to a ball. But we should be able to correct this into a HBP if warranted.

[tpatience]

2 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

I'm not entirely sure that is correct. We can't change a strike to a ball. But we should be able to correct this into a HBP if warranted.

Not if he called it a swing/attempt already but I do agree that this should be fixable. Especially if it’s clear that the batter did not attempt 

[ArchAngel72]

Pretty sure an Umpire with a better view can overrule something like a HBP instead of a strike based on the OP. 

 

Specifically when he asked for help that is.  

 

[aaluck]

4 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Pretty sure an Umpire with a better view can overrule something like a HBP instead of a strike based on the OP. 

I have to agree with this. It would seem that HBP could be changed.

I understand that a simple strike call you can't go to your partner and ask "hey the coach wants me to ask you if that was that a strike". But in this matter the PU called strike because he assumed intent to hit the pitch based upon what he last clearly viewed.  The dispute was whether or not there was intent and I had the better view of that.

 

[aaluck]

11 hours ago, tpatience said:

Because once you call a strike on a swing or attempt, you can’t take it back 

What if I'm in C and the pitcher throws one behind the batter and the PU hears a sound he thinks is the ball hitting the bat and calls foul (strike).  If I clearly saw the ball graze the helmet, not the bat, are we stuck with that as a strike or do we put him on first if the PU asks for help? Maybe @Matt can weigh in on this as well.

[tpatience]

42 minutes ago, aaluck said:

What if I'm in C and the pitcher throws one behind the batter and the PU hears a sound he thinks is the ball hitting the bat and calls foul (strike).  If I clearly saw the ball graze the helmet, not the bat, are we stuck with that as a strike or do we put him on first if the PU asks for help? Maybe @Matt can weigh in on this as well.

That’s different. That’s a HBP vs a foul ball. You can fix that. But once you call a swing, you can’t take that back

[maven]

31 minutes ago, tpatience said:

But once you call a swing, you can’t take that back

My reading was that the call was a pitch in the zone that hit the batter. That's a dead-ball strike that: (a) BU has no business discussing, and (b) PU can't change.

[tpatience]

47 minutes ago, maven said:

My reading was that the call was a pitch in the zone that hit the batter. That's a dead-ball strike that: (a) BU has no business discussing, and (b) PU can't change.

They’re saying that the batter attempted to bunt and then the BU said he didn’t 

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, aaluck said:

I have to agree with this. It would seem that HBP could be changed.

I understand that a simple strike call you can't go to your partner and ask "hey the coach wants me to ask you if that was that a strike". But in this matter the PU called strike because he assumed intent to hit the pitch based upon what he last clearly viewed.  The dispute was whether or not there was intent and I had the better view of that.

 

If he assumed it, then he made a mistake and hopefully learns from it...if you don't see a swing, don't call a swing.  In this place and scenario, the plate umpire called a swing, and now the offense is asking to change that.

By rule, the offense can't appeal a swinging strike...if PU had called no swing with HBP, the defense could appeal to look for a swing.   The HBP is just a wrinkle, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't change the principle of the scenario.   Swinging strike is called...can't unring that bell.

[aaluck]

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

By rule, the offense can't appeal a swinging strike...if PU had called no swing with HBP, the defense could appeal to look for a swing.   The HBP is just a wrinkle, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't change the principle of the scenario.   Swinging strike is called...can't unring that bell.

...and I'm not arguing that (maybe a little).  What I'm asking for is the FED RULE that states that 1) when a batter is hit by a pitch the plate umpire CANNOT seek help to make sure there was an attempt, even AFTER calling a strike; and 2) a strike call CANNOT be changed under any circumstances.  You say "By rule"--I say what rule?

4 hours ago, tpatience said:

That’s different. That’s a HBP vs a foul ball. You can fix that. But once you call a swing, you can’t take that back

Because with all due respect in BOTH of these cases a strike was called (one by attempt and one by foul ball--a strike is a strike) but @tpatiencehas drawn a distinction--which I cannot argue--but would like to see the RULE and I cannot find it.

Either way, MY new mechanic on this will be "Time, discussion, decision".  That way we have no 'change' of the call.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, aaluck said:

...and I'm not arguing that (maybe a little).  What I'm asking for is the FED RULE that states that 1) when a batter is hit by a pitch the plate umpire CANNOT seek help to make sure there was an attempt, even AFTER calling a strike; and 2) a strike call CANNOT be changed under any circumstances.  You say "By rule"--I say what rule?

I can only find the OBR rule right now - The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike

 

The only language I see in FED is a. The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing” is such as to be called a strike - nothing about calling a half swing a ball.   

I think you're asking the wrong question...the FED rules say that you can appeal a half swing to determine if it can be changed to a strike...there's nothing explicit to say you can't do the opposite, but I'd say it's implied in the wording of this rule.   But the FED rulebook doesn't explicitly say that you're not allowed to pee on home plate either.

 

OBR is definitely more explicit.

 

[maven]

That's not a rule it's a mechanic.

And all mechanics manuals agree: a pitch that is ruled a strike by PU cannot be "appealed" to BU, but a pitch that is ruled a ball may be. 

Whether the pitch hit the batter is another matter, and that may also be discussed. But it doesn't seem that there was any doubt about that here.