NFHS DH rule

[philaump]

Had my rules interp meeting last night.  Granted there were no new rules, due to the 2020 season being cancelled.

That being said, a question has come up regarding the new DH rule.

 

Question on the new DH rule:

 

Assume Smith is batting leadoff and playing 1B.  Jones bats second, and is listed on lineup card as P/DH.  

 

In 3d inning, Doe replaces Jones as P.  I understand at that point that Jones remains in offensive lineup as DH, and Doe is simply in the defensive lineup as the P, but is not batting.  No problem so far.

 

Then in 5th inning Jones goes back into the game on defense playing 1B and is still listed as the DH.  That's where I have the problem.  According to the 2020 NFHS Casebook, on page 26, "3.1.4 Situation F(c)" this is legal, but the casebook does not say what happens to either Smith or Doe.  I assume Smith, the former 1B, is now out of the game completely, which leaves the leadoff spot in the order vacant.  Meanwhile, what happens to Doe, the pitcher who came in in the 3d inning, and for whom Jones was the DH.  Does Doe now have to bat in the leadoff spot in order to remain in the game? If so, then Jones isn't really DHing for anyone any more, is he? Or does Doe have to come out of the game and a new pitcher enter, who bats leadoff? Or is there some other solution?

 

Sorry for being so dense.  I have no trouble interpreting complex contracts, but the DH wasn't something we covered in law school (maybe because it didn't exist when I graduated).

 

Thanks for any input.

My questions are:
1. Isn't this an illegal substitution?
2. Isn't the DH eliminated since Doe and Jones are in the game at the same time?

[Donny7]

7 hours ago, philaump said:

Had my rules interp meeting last night.  Granted there were no new rules, due to the 2020 season being cancelled.

That being said, a question has come up regarding the new DH rule.

 

Question on the new DH rule:

 

Assume Smith is batting leadoff and playing 1B.  Jones bats second, and is listed on lineup card as P/DH.  

 

In 3d inning, Doe replaces Jones as P.  I understand at that point that Jones remains in offensive lineup as DH, and Doe is simply in the defensive lineup as the P, but is not batting.  No problem so far.

 

Then in 5th inning Jones goes back into the game on defense playing 1B and is still listed as the DH.  That's where I have the problem.  According to the 2020 NFHS Casebook, on page 26, "3.1.4 Situation F(c)" this is legal, but the casebook does not say what happens to either Smith or Doe.  I assume Smith, the former 1B, is now out of the game completely, which leaves the leadoff spot in the order vacant.  Meanwhile, what happens to Doe, the pitcher who came in in the 3d inning, and for whom Jones was the DH.  Does Doe now have to bat in the leadoff spot in order to remain in the game? If so, then Jones isn't really DHing for anyone any more, is he? Or does Doe have to come out of the game and a new pitcher enter, who bats leadoff? Or is there some other solution?

 

Sorry for being so dense.  I have no trouble interpreting complex contracts, but the DH wasn't something we covered in law school (maybe because it didn't exist when I graduated).

 

Thanks for any input.

My questions are:
1. Isn't this an illegal substitution?
2. Isn't the DH eliminated since Doe and Jones are in the game at the same time?

All was good until the 5^th inning.

When Jones returns on defense, Doe, who substituted for Jones defensively, must be removed. Even though Doe was not playing offense, he and Jones were locked into the same spot in the order. Jones is now a defensive player batting for himself. Doe who was a substitute cannot re-enter.

At this point where does Smith, the leadoff hitter and 1B go. He either stays in the game in another defensive position or he is replaced by an eligible substitute. If substituted for, Smith, being a starting player may re-enter.

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, maven said:

We start with this lineup:

1. Smith
2. Jones (P/DH)

3rd inning, we have this:

1. Smith
2. Jones (DH) — Doe pitching

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

When Smith leaves the game, he's a starter and will have re-entry. Doe has to drop into his spot in the order (because Smith is not in it). If Smith re-enters, he'd be in the 1 spot still, and Doe would have to leave the game.

Jones left on defense and returned. The rule limits the number of times a team may do this. Because no DH provision was violated by the changes, the DH role is still alive.

Note that "P/DH" is a misnomer for FED. It's really "F/DH" because the DH may play any position (though F1 is probably most common).

Returning on defense is constrained by rule but does not violate the DH provisions.

The caseplay doesn't say what happened to Smith or Doe (not the names the caseplay uses)  but I'd assume that when Jones came back in Doe left the game and Smith moved to another position.

[Donny7]

11 hours ago, maven said:

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe - Smith or an eligible subsitute for Smith
2. Jones (F/DH)

Doe was a defensive sub for Jones, the F/DH. They were both locked in the 2 positiion so Doe can't "drop into" or change from 2 to 1 in the order.

Jones and Doe cannot both remain in the game simultaneously on defense. The only way for Doe to remain in the game is for Jones to remain the DH batting for Doe or for Doe to assume Jones spot in the order both on offense and defense.

Jones being a starter could still re-enter in the 2 spot replacing Doe and batting for himself.

Doe being a sub cannot re-enter. 

[aaluck]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:22 PM, maven said:

Doe has to drop into his spot in the order (because Smith is not in it)

How is this?  Wouldn't Doe already be locked into the 2nd slot despite not being used on offense? Smith was still batting for himself in the 3rd, 4th and 5th when Doe was in the game. Aren't you essentially letting a sub re-enter and move spots in the batting order? 

On 2/18/2021 at 5:22 PM, Donny7 said:

When Jones returns on defense, Doe, who substituted for Jones defensively, must be removed.

This makes more sense to me. I do not understand how you can move Doe around the batting order, haven't you crated a 'new' DH with Doe moving to the 1 slot?

 

Or are you both saying the same thing and I'm misunderstanding.

[Donny7]

3 hours ago, aaluck said:

How is this?  Wouldn't Doe already be locked into the 2nd slot despite not being used on offense? Smith was still batting for himself in the 3rd, 4th and 5th when Doe was in the game. Aren't you essentially letting a sub re-enter and move spots in the batting order? 

This makes more sense to me. I do not understand how you can move Doe around the batting order, haven't you crated a 'new' DH with Doe moving to the 1 slot?

 

Or are you both saying the same thing and I'm misunderstanding.

No we are not both saying the same thing. All your statements agree with mine and are correctamundo. 

Mavens response was mistakenly tagged as the best correct answer and no one has challenged it, nor sent out a correction. 

[Replacematt]

On 2/18/2021 at 10:16 AM, philaump said:

According to the 2020 NFHS Casebook, on page 26, "3.1.4 Situation F(c)" this is legal, but the casebook does not say what happens to either Smith or Doe. 

Could you post what this caseplay says?

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, Matt said:

Could you post what this caseplay says?

The case play does not say enough but with other case plays and the rule you would have to assume that the batting order and assignment to a lineup slot did not change:

“3.1.4 SITUATION F: Sanders is listed as the P/DH, hitting in the third position in the batting order. (a) In the fifth inning, McNeely enters the game as pitcher with Sanders reaching his pitch count limit. Sanders continues as DH for McNeely; (b) in the sixth inning, substitute Jackson enters to pitch replacing McNeely. Sanders remains the DH for Jackson; and (c) in the seventh inning, Sanders returns to defense as the catcher and is still listed as the DH. RULING: Legal in (a), (b) and (c).”

Excerpt From
2020 NFHS Baseball Case Book
NFHS
https://books.apple.com/us/book/2020-nfhs-baseball-case-book/id1489346061
This material may be protected by copyright.

[Replacematt]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

The case play does not say enough but with other case plays and the rule you would have to assume that the batting order and assignment to a lineup slot did not change:

“3.1.4 SITUATION F: Sanders is listed as the P/DH, hitting in the third position in the batting order. (a) In the fifth inning, McNeely enters the game as pitcher with Sanders reaching his pitch count limit. Sanders continues as DH for McNeely; (b) in the sixth inning, substitute Jackson enters to pitch replacing McNeely. Sanders remains the DH for Jackson; and (c) in the seventh inning, Sanders returns to defense as the catcher and is still listed as the DH. RULING: Legal in (a), (b) and (c).”

Excerpt From
2020 NFHS Baseball Case Book
NFHS
https://books.apple.com/us/book/2020-nfhs-baseball-case-book/id1489346061
This material may be protected by copyright.

That's what I wanted to clarify. All this play illustrates is that multiple consecutive fielders can replace the defensive part of the P/DH and not affect the starter's reentry.

[aaluck]

16 hours ago, Donny7 said:

No we are not both saying the same thing. All your statements agree with mine and are correctamundo. 

Mavens response was mistakenly tagged as the best correct answer and no one has challenged it, nor sent out a correction. 

Okay. When I read what @maven said I was a bit confused. I'm not sure how he thinks you can move folks around the batting order..maybe he will come back and explain his response, or correct it.

[beerguy55]

27 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Okay. When I read what @maven said I was a bit confused. I'm not sure how he thinks you can move folks around the batting order..maybe he will come back and explain his response, or correct it.

I don't see how he moved anyone in the batting order.

 

Jones only ever batted in the two spot.

Doe never batted in any other spot.

[Replacematt]

24 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I don't see how he moved anyone in the batting order.

 

Jones only ever batted in the two spot.

Doe never batted in any other spot.

Because the rule states that the DH and fielder are locked into the same spot in the order, batting or not.

[aaluck]

45 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Jones only ever batted in the two spot.

Doe never batted in any other spot.

Doe is tied to the same spot as Jones, whether he ever batted or not.  You cannot move him to the 1 spot.

We start with this lineup:

1. Smith
2. Jones (P/DH)

3rd inning, we have this:

1. Smith
2. Jones (DH) — Doe pitching

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

In the 5th Doe has been moved from the 2 spot to the 1 spot, you can't do that. Think of it this way, if Jones does not return and the coach says 'DOE go bat'... where would DOE bat in the 1 spot or 2 spot?  @maven is correct up until the 5th inning.  The batting order is not a 'internal change' of positions, like moving the SS to CF.  When you put a sub into a batting position--done by WHO (in this case Jones) they take the place of--that's where the sub bats--if they bat.

Look at where maven has Doe on the line-up card in the third.. that's the correct way to do it.  Once done you cannot just move Doe to hit wherever he wants. 

[Jimurray]

32 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Doe is tied to the same spot as Jones, whether he ever batted or not.  You cannot move him to the 1 spot.

We start with this lineup:

1. Smith
2. Jones (P/DH)

3rd inning, we have this:

1. Smith
2. Jones (DH) — Doe pitching

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

In the 5th Doe has been moved from the 2 spot to the 1 spot, you can't do that. Think of it this way, if Jones does not return and the coach says 'DOE go bat'... where would DOE bat in the 1 spot or 2 spot?  @maven is correct up until the 5th inning.  The batting order is not a 'internal change' of positions, like moving the SS to CF.  When you put a sub into a batting position--done by WHO (in this case Jones) they take the place of--that's where the sub bats--if they bat.

Look at where maven has Doe on the line-up card in the third.. that's the correct way to do it.  Once done you cannot just move Doe to hit wherever he wants. 

While @mavenplaced Doe in the 1 spot, the caseplay did not specify who left the game and who would bat in the 1 spot.

[aaluck]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

While @mavenplaced Doe in the 1 spot, the caseplay did not specify who left the game and who would bat in the 1 spot.

True.  The case play should be a bit more specific, as you know this is probably going to happen at some point.

[Donny7]

10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

While @mavenplaced Doe in the 1 spot, the caseplay did not specify who left the game and who would bat in the 1 spot.

We do know that Doe could not legally move from #2 to #1, irrespective of who did or did not leave the game... in the caseplay or the OP's original scenario. 

[Replacematt]

11 hours ago, aaluck said:

Doe is tied to the same spot as Jones, whether he ever batted or not.  You cannot move him to the 1 spot.

We start with this lineup:

1. Smith
2. Jones (P/DH)

3rd inning, we have this:

1. Smith
2. Jones (DH) — Doe pitching

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

In the 5th Doe has been moved from the 2 spot to the 1 spot, you can't do that. Think of it this way, if Jones does not return and the coach says 'DOE go bat'... where would DOE bat in the 1 spot or 2 spot?  @maven is correct up until the 5th inning.  The batting order is not a 'internal change' of positions, like moving the SS to CF.  When you put a sub into a batting position--done by WHO (in this case Jones) they take the place of--that's where the sub bats--if they bat.

Look at where maven has Doe on the line-up card in the third.. that's the correct way to do it.  Once done you cannot just move Doe to hit wherever he wants. 

I'm wondering if he conflated this rule with the pro rule, where you can move a pitcher into the batting order in a different spot than the DH when the DH enters on defense. 

[aaluck]

13 hours ago, Matt said:

I'm wondering if he conflated this rule with the pro rule, where you can move a pitcher into the batting order in a different spot than the DH when the DH enters on defense. 

Not sure, but it would sure be nice if whoever is in charge of making the wrong answer the best (maybe @Thunderheads) would explain why everyone else in incorrect. Or @maven explain if we are missing something. 

[wolfe_man]

I think you're right in your response.

• The issue is that Jones and one of his substitutes cannot be in the game defensively at the same time.  
• In the 5th, when Doe stays in and Jones returns to a defensive position, then one of them has to leave the game. 
• If Jones is coming back in for defense, then he stays as DH in the #2 spot in the order, meaning Doe would be done for the game.  
• If they want to keep Doe as the the Pitcher, then Jones remains the DH and has re-entry rights, but he cannot play any defensive role while one of his subs is also on the field.

The order would go like this in the 5th (we all agree on the 1st and 3rd innings from above I believe):

• 5th inning (no sub, Doe remains F1, Jones as DH):

1. Smith - 1B
2. Jones (DH) - Doe (P)

 

EDITED:  The below  is NOT an option.  The starter (Jones) is locked into his place in the lineup.

• Could they choose to keep Doe as F1 and let him bat - and then re-enter Jones at 1B for Smith? If yes, this would eliminate the DH role of course. I guess my question is can you re-enter a starter for another starter (as a sub) when re-entering?

 

 

[aaluck]

7 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

• 5th inning (Doe remains F1, Jones re-enters as sub for Smith at 1B):

1. Jones - 1B
2. Doe (P)  <DH eliminated>

Not quite.  The only place Jones can enter back into the game is in his ORIGINAL spot, #2 batter--Jones is locked into the 2 spot the second the coach hands you the line-up and says this is how he wants it. Doesn't matter what position on the field we don't care as umps.

Further, the only place Doe can bat it in his sub spot, also the #2 batter. 

Remember the line-up card is batting order ONLY.  The original 9 batters cannot be moved to another spot.  If it could the coach could do a quick substitution to have his 4 hole guy bat ninth in a close game.

[wolfe_man]

6 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Not quite.  The only place Jones can enter back into the game is in his ORIGINAL spot, #2 batter--Jones is locked into the 2 spot the second the coach hands you the line-up and says this is how he wants it. Doesn't matter what position on the field we don't care as umps.

Further, the only place Doe can bat it in his sub spot, also the #2 batter. 

Remember the line-up card is batting order ONLY.  The original 9 batters cannot be moved to another spot.  If it could the coach could do a quick substitution to have his 4 hole guy bat ninth in a close game.

That's what I wasn't sure about.  Thanks for the feedback.

So, if he can't sub to the starting 1B Smith's spot, then they only have one choice.  Either keep Jones as DH and Doe as F1 - or lose one of them since both can't be in the game at the same time on defense.   As soon as Doe takes an official at bat, the DH is done for game, but Jones would still have re-entry rights on defense.

 

[aaluck]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Either keep Jones as DH and Doe as F1 - or lose one of them since both can't be in the game at the same time on defense.   As soon as Doe takes an official at bat, the DH is done for game, but Jones would still have re-entry rights on defense.

That's exactly how I understand it.

[maven]

We start with this lineup:

1. Smith
2. Jones (P/DH)

3rd inning, we have this:

1. Smith
2. Jones (DH) — Doe pitching

5th inning, we have this

1. Doe
2. Jones (F/DH)

When Smith leaves the game, he's a starter and will have re-entry. Doe has to drop into his spot in the order (because Smith is not in it). If Smith re-enters, he'd be in the 1 spot still, and Doe would have to leave the game.

Jones left on defense and returned. The rule limits the number of times a team may do this. Because no DH provision was violated by the changes, the DH role is still alive.

Note that "P/DH" is a misnomer for FED. It's really "F/DH" because the DH may play any position (though F1 is probably most common).

Returning on defense is constrained by rule but does not violate the DH provisions.