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Grand Slam... or is it?


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The announcers say PU called out R3; the box score says it was an appeal, and he was called out for missing the plate. That's not what happened - no appeal was made. That, of course, could  have happe

He barely got into the dirt circle. I like abandonment better than missed base. What did  supervisor say? That's the right answer, of course.

At first I, too, thought the plate umpire committed a major mistake in calling the play the way he did. But after checking the rule book it seems he may not have been so wrong after all. Here’s what I

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The announcers say PU called out R3; the box score says it was an appeal, and he was called out for missing the plate. That's not what happened - no appeal was made. That, of course, could  have happened, but it didn't.

There are two other options: R3 out for abandonment, or R2 out for passing R3 before R3 touched the plate (and, of course, R3 never did touch the plate, before or after being passed).

If, as the announcers say, R3 was called out for abandonment, then that's the 3rd out, inning over, no one scores.

If we go with "R2 passed R3 before he touched the plate".... Then R2 is the one who is declared out... but would R3's run score? The answer is still no. Rule 8-5-m Note: "...With two outs, only those preceding runners score who have touched the plate before the batter is declared out. This is a time play, not an appeal play."  Since R3 had not touched the plate before he was passed, his run does not score, and neither do R1 or the BR.

Awesome play to learn from.

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13 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I'd rule this as a missed base and wait for the appeal, rather than an out for "passing"  That said, I think the out for passing (or for abandonment) can be supported -- but it would look better if it were called earlier.

How do we signal "abandonment"? By pointing at the runner committing the abandonment and then signaling an out? Honestly, I've never thought about that before..... That is, how to signal the call when it happens.

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10 minutes ago, jms1425 said:

How do we signal "abandonment"? By pointing at the runner committing the abandonment and then signaling an out? Honestly, I've never thought about that before..... That is, how to signal the call when it happens.

Also, should PU have done this at some point, rather than waiting for the whole thing to play out? For example, once R2 touches the plate, R3 can no longer go back and touch, so would that be the moment at which to signal R3 is out?

Thoughts?

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He barely got into the dirt circle. I like abandonment better than missed base.

What did  supervisor say? That's the right answer, of course.

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At first I, too, thought the plate umpire committed a major mistake in calling the play the way he did. But after checking the rule book it seems he may not have been so wrong after all. Here’s what I think is the relevant rule--

2019-2020 NCAA rule 8 When Runners Are Out

SECTION 5. A runner is out when:

c. Any runner after reaching a base safely who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his defensive position, believing that there is no further play, if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner (see Rule 2-1, Abandonment);

Note: This rule will also cover similar types of plays: 1) Less than two outs, score tied, last inning, runner on first, batter hits the ball out of the park for the winning run. The runner on first touches second and believing the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across the diamond and heads toward his bench as the batter touches all the bases. In this example, the base runner would be called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base. The batter-runner is permitted to continue around the bases to make his home run valid. If there were two outs, the home run would not count. This is not an appeal play. 2) A runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.

If the PU called R3 out as it is stated on the video and shown in the online play-by-play (Appeal: Josh JOHNSTON was called out, failed to touch a base), then this rule would cover the lack of a live ball appeal and the waiting to make the call.

And because R3 was still forced at the time he was called out for abandonment (or not touching the base) the batter was not credited with any kind of a hit.

 

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Looked to me like the umpire called no one out for passing or for abandonment. He then walks out to the pitcher, calls time and gives the pitcher another ball--acting like the inning is ongoing. Then he appears to spontaneously call R-3 out after he's called time. I saw or heard no appeal for a missed base. I saw no "no runs score!" type signalling mechanic. I suspect we'll all be watching this video again at our local association meetings with Hiler narrating in the background :)

image.jpeg.5a2ef4f6dafd0fb8f5519d6d00eba17a.jpeg

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49 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I've got R2 (not #2 as indicated by the announcers) out for passing.  He is out #3.

that is a WTF moment. I'm good but I don't know if I could process a LL/third world eff up any quicker than the ump. I'm thinking WTF just happened, missed base, passing, while watching the other touches. I finally judge passing and call it. Others finally judge a missed base. 

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So based on what I saw 

 

R3 out for abandonment and its out #3  no one behind him should score. 

 

And BR should beat R3 with a baseball bat for being a moron

kidding obviously but damn that was awfully dumb

 

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50 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So based on what I saw 

 

R3 out for abandonment and its out #3  no one behind him should score. 

 

And BR should beat R3 with a baseball bat for being a moron

kidding obviously but damn that was awfully dumb

 

there's one out during this play, so:

R3 is out for abandonment, and R2 is out for passing.  That's where I'm getting outs #2 and 3 ;) 

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27 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

there's one out during this play, so:

R3 is out for abandonment, and R2 is out for passing.  That's where I'm getting outs #2 and 3 ;) 

There were two outs at the start of the play.

 

You can't "pass" a runner who has abandoned.

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I asked about the mechanics of signaling this play, and got feedback from some very well-respected instructors (no names please, cuz I'm not sure which of them responded... lol)

At the moment we deem a runner to have abandoned his attempts to run the bases, we should point at said runner, call, "That's abandonment," and then signal the out. Here's the rest of their reply:

"...once [R3] stops, turns 90 degrees and commits to heading to the dugout, he is out and we can signal.

This might be different if he stayed near the plate and R2 then passed him.. now we have PASSING which in theory would also be signaled right when it happens.

Having said that, fully support this umpire for taking some time to unpack it all. I'd rather be late and right than early and wrong."

 

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OK, when I talked about coming up big and immediately, this is what I'm talking about.

The PU here showed this video at a clinic I went to a couple of years ago, and I hunted the video down from the clinic instructors. (Note that the instructor, also a D1 guy, uploaded this at my request, so it's unlisted and might be taken down - it's meant for instruction purposes, so watch now).

Obviously, the coach wanted to know what was going on, and PU explained it. Coach went and talked to his player, and then at about 1:28 coach comes out to say he's not challenging (and not shown here, but the next thing he said to PU was that he had a substitution :rollinglaugh:)

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There you go!  Nice video!!  Simple and emphatic signalling mechanics taught at every quality rookie weekend mechanics clinic. Big thumbs up! Even if the coach and nobody else in the stadium was watching what happened (following the ball), we know the 1st runner who didn't touch home is out (and not only is he out, he's seriously out by the looks of it), and we know that he did not score, nor did the succeeding runner. No runs scored on the play. I assume he was out for abandonment, not the succeeding runner out for passing. I'm all for taking lots of time and processing to get the call right, but once a game-changing unusual call like the one in either of these two videos is made in the umpire's mind, it's got to be communicated orally and visually. It's perfectly fine for a coach to come out and ask, "What happened?"  It's not o.k. for the coach to come out and ask, "What's the call?" Just one amateur's opinion.

Thanks for sharing the video. Really makes me glad for all the weekend and week long clinics I've been to, ingraining signalling mechanics into muscle memory so that you don't even need to think about it--my body and mouth just effortlessly externalize what my brain just decided. Before ever calling a real ball or strike, I'd practiced the timing play signalling mechanic at a LL weekend clinic till it was automatic. How many runs score on that play? Let everybody know!!

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36 minutes ago, Recontra said:

I assume he was out for abandonment, not the next runner for passing

In the video I posted, we have R2 and R1.

No, he called R1 out for passing. R2 is still lingering near the circle. At 1:16 you can see PU pointing past R2 to R1 (who had passed the plate, but was out of the frame and moving toward the dugout) as the one who was out.

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4 hours ago, flyingron said:

Close call just posted a treatment of this incident:  https://www.closecallsports.com/2021/02/real-world-rules-teachable-moment.html

 

I like that analysis. But I have a question related to my very hazy memory of calculus which I was good at but am no longer. Something to do with the limit. R3 backs up and is passed without him touching HP by a lot, the distance of the dirt circle. Very hard to think he thought he touched HP and scored and went to the dugout but he might actually say that's what happened. So in his mind he didn't abandon and was not passed. But let's go through the iteration of him backing up a little further. At what point do we judge he missed HP, didn't abandon, and was not passed. Many scorers stop at the plate and touch it without running through it. If you saw a runner pivot his foot to the plate, never rotate enough to touch it, or just miss the toe touching and back off would you have abandonment, passing if others scored behind him? 

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I'm ruling based on the best description of the action, not the runner's intent. I don't care whether he thought he touched the plate.

When he absent-mindedly stops at the dirt circle—9 or 10 feet from HP—and wanders toward the dugout completely focused on the other runners and the upcoming celebration, I still like abandonment.

But it doesn't matter what I, or you, or Gil, or anyone else thinks about this play. The only opinion that counts is the supervisor's (until the national office picks it up and puts it on a training tape, and at that point only their opinion counts).

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On 2/11/2021 at 3:21 PM, kylehutson said:

It sure looked to me like passing. But if you call this, you should come up big and immediately to call it.

Absolutely right!  You call it right away!  That would be out #3, and since R3 had not legally scored, no runs score.  Had there been fewer than 2 outs when the play started, all other runners who legally touch home would score.  In this case a max of two.

Yes, PU should have come up large and in charge and called it, but the play continues.  See if the other runners just give up and abandon their positions.  (Punish stupidity whenever possible.)

I had a play like this as U3 in the LLWS District 10 tournament in Virginia.  3B coacher had R3 tagging up on a popup.  1B coacher sent R2 and R1 because he though the ball would NOT be caught.  R2 motored around and passed R3 when the ball dropped in fair territory.  I ruled R2 out;  we scored R3, R1 ended up on 3B, BR into 2B.  Had to explain a bit, but the point is the ball was NOT dead.

Mike

Las Vegas

EDITED TO ADD:  Yes you could have a double play with R2 passing and R3 abandoning.  Again NO RUNS SCORE if there were 1 out at the time.  With 0 outs, R1 and BR could score if presumably they properly ran the bases and did not abandon their positions.  

Edited by Vegas_Ump
Forgot about R3 abandoning
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On 2/12/2021 at 10:32 AM, Thunderheads said:

there's one out during this play, so:

R3 is out for abandonment, and R2 is out for passing.  That's where I'm getting outs #2 and 3 ;) 

OP States 2 outs   Film shows 2 outs

 

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7 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

OP States 2 outs   Film shows 2 outs

 

ya  know what, ....I JUST REALIZED THAT about an hour ago! LOL!  My fault there!

My question then would be:   COULD you get 2 on this play?  Say, if there was 1 out?

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