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Hit by pitch before full swing


Guest Joe

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Guest Joe

Hi. If a batter is hit by a pitch at the beginning of a swing (i.e., before committing fully to the swing), and then he follows through with the swing, is that a strike or is the batter awarded first base? Thank you.

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It would count as a dead ball strike. In order for the HBP he would have to check his swing in your scenario.

We have to judge whether the bat crossing the plate is a bona fide swing every time it happens. No different when there's a HBP involved.

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5 hours ago, Guest Joe said:

Hi. If a batter is hit by a pitch at the beginning of a swing (i.e., before committing fully to the swing), and then he follows through with the swing, is that a strike or is the batter awarded first base? Thank you.

It reads to me like he had committed to the swing -- but  you hadn't realized it yet.

 

IOW, I agree with BT_Blue's "dead ball strike" ruling.

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Agreed. Dead-ball strike.

The rule indicates that if we have HBP + swing, that's a dead-ball strike. It makes no provision for judging whether the pitch strikes the batter before any particular part of the swing.

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For me  if this is 12U and below LL I would judge it off the hitter and how they were.  If its some 12 U whos been there done that and took a mighty uppercut at it. yeah DB-K.  If its some 10U who swung but looked like he was defending himself with the bat and was terrified, well he gets the HBP base.   I'm not gonna penalize a batter whos pooped his drawers, nor do I want him standing there in the box next to me stinking like that.

 

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3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

For me  if this is 12U and below LL I would judge it off the hitter and how they were.  If its some 12 U whos been there done that and took a mighty uppercut at it. yeah DB-K.  If its some 10U who swung but looked like he was defending himself with the bat and was terrified, well he gets the HBP base.   I'm not gonna penalize a batter whos pooped his drawers, nor do I want him standing there in the box next to me stinking like that.

We have to judge whether the bat crossing the plate is a bona fide swing every time it happens. No different when there's a HBP involved.

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3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

For me  if this is 12U and below LL I would judge it off the hitter and how they were.  If its some 12 U whos been there done that and took a mighty uppercut at it. yeah DB-K.  If its some 10U who swung but looked like he was defending himself with the bat and was terrified, well he gets the HBP base.   I'm not gonna penalize a batter whos pooped his drawers, nor do I want him standing there in the box next to me stinking like that.

 

That's fine...doesn't answer the question...but that's fine.

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4 hours ago, noumpere said:

It reads to me like he had committed to the swing -- but  you hadn't realized it yet.

 

IOW, I agree with BT_Blue's "dead ball strike" ruling.

On EVERY check swing the batter commits to a swing, and then changes his mind...you are simply judging whether or not the batter changed his mind "in time".   You are differentiating between beginning a swing and completing a swing.

Since the ball is dead immediately after it hits the batter I truly wonder if you can say a person swung at a dead ball - that if he had only begun his swing at the time of contact, I don't know if he can complete a swing after that (he certainly can't hit the ball now).

Practically speaking, that's a nightmare to judge, and it's certainly a lot easier to simply say there's a swing, so dead ball strike.   I don't think I've seen anything close to that...any swing/miss/hit batter I've seen it's been blindingly obvious that the swing attempt completed before the pitch hit the batter.   But I think the rules would support an umpire, in an extremely late swing, judging that the swing occurred after the ball was dead, and therefore no swing.

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

That's fine...doesn't answer the question...but that's fine.

It does for LL

 

Doc states a kid in LL gets smacked send him to 1st Even if he was swinging I think he was talking 10-8 But also the OP did not point put who' rules and what level.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

It does for LL

 

Doc states a kid in LL gets smacked send him to 1st Even if he was swinging I think he was talking 10-8 But also the OP did not point put who' rules and what level.

 

 

Again, that's not the question...the question is whether it's a strike if your swing (or most of it) happens AFTER you got hit by a pitch.  Age/level doesn't really matter.   It's a very specific scenario.

You're giving general guidance that applies to any swing on any hbp for the little ones.  And even then, all you're doing is judging what's a swing and what isn't...which is applicable in any scenario, whether the kid got hit by a pitch or not.   For the 10U who got scared and used the bat to defend himself but the pitch did not hit him you're making the same assessment...swing/strike or not.  You're probably giving him a ball, but a 14 year old a strike.

Unless you're telling me you're truly talking about a 12U player who took a mighty upper cut after the pitch hit him...or a 10U who swung his bat to defend himself after the pitch hit him.

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On 2/1/2021 at 11:39 AM, beerguy55 said:

On EVERY check swing the batter commits to a swing, and then changes his mind...you are simply judging whether or not the batter changed his mind "in time".   You are differentiating between beginning a swing and completing a swing.

 

I think it's just semantics, but imo if you "commit" to a swing, you can't "change your mind" by definition.  If you can "change your mind" then you have only intended to swing, you have not committed to a swing.

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On 2/3/2021 at 9:03 AM, noumpere said:

I think it's just semantics, but imo if you "commit" to a swing, you can't "change your mind" by definition.  If you can "change your mind" then you have only intended to swing, you have not committed to a swing.

Yeah, probably semantics - We all make the best decision we can, about anything, based on the information we have at the time, and we commit to an action (or opinion, or promise, or whatever) accordingly...but if the information changes we may change our mind.   Even our most solemn oaths can be conditional, to some degree.  I agree that a commitment is a little more solid (or stubborn) than a good faith intention, but I think neither is irreversible.   And in the context of a decision that occurs in about 1/3 of a second I submit it's incredibly close to impossible to differentiate between the intention and commitment of a batter, except to simply choose to label the final result and judgment, after the fact...not during.

On every check swing (or attempted check swing, if you prefer) the batter HAS changed their mind ("oooh, big juicy fastball...swing!...Oh, crap...serious slider...STOP!!!!") - that's the only reason you're called upon to make your judgment, whether you're the PU or the BU called in an appeal - the batter stopped their swing...whether you want to call it commit vs intend is fine - you're using an arbitrary line of judgment which I call "too late" to differentiate between commit and intend, strike/no strike - don't care if it's breaking the wrists, crossing the plane of the plate, flipping a coin, gut feeling, or asking the gods, you're just deciding if the batter stopped in time, or not.   

In all scenarios, there is a beginning and end to said swing....you're telling us whether not he swung "at the ball".

Which then begs the question...I try check to my swing, stop my bat somewhere around the plate and pull back, but you still rule a strike..."he went"...(ie. too bad, too late) "when" did I commit to my swing?  When I started moving?  When my eyes bulged out?  When the bat entered the strike zone?   As opposed to the guy who stopped his swing in time...maybe only bringing his bat within a couple of inches of where I stopped mine...he never committed to swinging??

I know we all try to rationalize the thought process an umpire must go through to determine swing/no swing...but, really..."looked like a swing" is probably the most realistic summary there is.  I may not be able to define a swing but I know it when I see it.   

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On 2/1/2021 at 1:41 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

It does for LL

 

Doc states a kid in LL gets smacked send him to 1st Even if he was swinging I think he was talking 10-8 But also the OP did not point put who' rules and what level.

 

 

Where have you seen that? I've never seen that in any LL literature.

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21 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Where have you seen that? I've never seen that in any LL literature.

Its not written it was taught in class by Doc and I cannot recall the name of the other older gentleman there. Its killing me I forgot it. 

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1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

The kind of petty bickering seen on this thread is the reason I stopped looking at this site last year.  I came back today, just to see...this time it's bye-bye for good.

 

Of the probably hundreds of legit and non snark conversations you missed over the past year, THIS is the one that you single out out?

I mean... you do you. And who am I to tell anyone who to share their bandwidth with. But... MAN...!

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It's the umpire's judgement:  Did he go?  Might have to ask your partner!

Hit batsman involved?  If you judged that he did go, it's a strike.  If you judged that he didn't, batter gets first.  In either case, the ball is dead.

What could be more simple?

Mike

Las Vegas

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3 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

It's the umpire's judgement:  Did he go?  Might have to ask your partner!

Hit batsman involved?  If you judged that he did go, it's a strike.  If you judged that he didn't, batter gets first.  In either case, the ball is dead.

What could be more simple?

Mike

Las Vegas

I think the question is, when is a swing no longer a swing...or when is it too late to swing....and finally, when does a swing begin...or when does it become a swing?

To take an extreme example, if you have two strikes and a wild pitch goes to the screen, you can't swing and run to first.  At some point it's no longer a pitch, and you can't swing.

As well, if the ball already hits you, it's no longer a pitch...if you swing after the ball hits you it's not a strike.

So, can a swing be completed after the ball is dead?

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