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I'm not trying to cheat but need help with this one. :o

I feel is a trick question...

B3 bats following consecutive walks to R1 and R2. B3 hits a slow roller to F6 who feints a throw to first base before wheeling and throwing to third base to try and tag R2, who had overrun the bag. The throw goes into the stands behind third base. All runners had reached the succeeding base when the throw was made.
  • a.
    • R3 score, R2 is awarded third base, R1 is awarded second base
  • b.
    • R3 scores, R2 scores, R1 is awarded third base
  • c.
    • R3 scores, R1 and R2 are awarded a minimum of one base and potentially more based on the umpires’ judgment
  • d.
    • The base umpire could potentially conference with the plate umpire regarding: 1) if the “feint” constitutes a “play” 2) Where were the runners when the ball was released
  • e.
    • Both B and D
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Was it a night game or a day game?  Sorry, I had to do it before someone else did. I have to agree with our rules master, Senor Azul and go with E.   You have to go with the one that makes m

I agree with Sr. Azul that B is the correct answer of the "awards" choices. I'm not quite sure what the test maker is asking on the "potentially conference" answer -- you can "potentially confere

I'm thinking A. I see no reason that the feint qualifies as a play.

9 minutes ago, JaxRolo said:

I'm not trying to cheat but need help with this one. :o

I feel is a trick question...

B3 bats following consecutive walks to R1 and R2. B3 hits a slow roller to F6 who feints a throw to first base before wheeling and throwing to third base to try and tag R2, who had overrun the bag. The throw goes into the stands behind third base. All runners had reached the succeeding base when the throw was made.
 
  • a.
    • R3 score, R2 is awarded third base, R1 is awarded second base
 
  • b.
    • R3 scores, R2 scores, R1 is awarded third base
 
  • c.
    • R3 scores, R1 and R2 are awarded a minimum of one base and potentially more based on the umpires’ judgment
 
  • d.
    • The base umpire could potentially conference with the plate umpire regarding: 1) if the “feint” constitutes a “play” 2) Where were the runners when the ball was released
 
  • e.
    • Both B and D

I'm thinking A. I see no reason that the feint qualifies as a play.

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8 minutes ago, LMSANS said:

I'm thinking A. I see no reason that the feint qualifies as a play.

yeah a Feint is NOT a play...

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I have option e as the answer. Here’s why—it is the first play by an infielder but the important detail in this scenario is that all runners had already advanced one base at the time of the first play. So here is what we do then—rule 8-3-5b tells us.

2019 FED rule 8-3 ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. (emphasis added)

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5 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I have option e as the answer. Here’s why—it is the first play by an infielder but the important detail in this scenario is that all runners had already advanced one base at the time of the first play. So here is what we do then—rule 8-3-5b tells us.

2019 FED rule 8-3 ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. (emphasis added)

I just don't like that D answer for a test question answer.  After all the out of play responsibility is Home Plate Umpire...

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3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

what forum is this posted under? ;) 

My bad I did not see that I was browsing most current stuff on the right side of the page.  It just shows topics not what they are under. I just looked up after being prompted to and saw "HighSchool"

:blush2:

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Was it a night game or a day game? 

Sorry, I had to do it before someone else did.

I have to agree with our rules master, Senor Azul and go with E.   You have to go with the one that makes most sense - or is the truest.   E makes the "most" sense.

Of course, if this is NFHS it doesn't matter what's right as they miss one or two a year it seems.

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I agree with Sr. Azul that B is the correct answer of the "awards" choices.

I'm not quite sure what the test maker is asking on the "potentially conference" answer -- you can "potentially conference" about anything; some things you are NOT supposed to (actually) conference about.  You can conference about the runner's locations; you shouldn't conference about the "feint is a play" if it's asking about judgment; you can conference about this if it's a rules question.  So, .....

 

;)

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I forgot about the 

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

I have option e as the answer. Here’s why—it is the first play by an infielder but the important detail in this scenario is that all runners had already advanced one base at the time of the first play. So here is what we do then—rule 8-3-5b tells us.

2019 FED rule 8-3 ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. (emphasis added)

I don't see where E applies. At least the D part of it. I see my error and now say B. But the conference about the feint sounds like a trick by an over-zealous test maker.

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So let’s walk through the scenario presented in the test question, OK? We have runners at first and second so the BU is in the C position.

He turns with the batted ball toward the shortstop—depending upon the actual location of F6 the BU may not be able to also see the R1 arriving at second base. Additionally he probably does not see the BR from that position facing the shortstop.

The shortstop makes his first play to third base but throws the ball out of play. The BU has turned with the ball toward third and sees the ball go out of play. That puts both the original R1 and the BR behind him—he may have seen all runners briefly earlier but it is certainly a possibility that he did not see them at the time the ball was released from the shortstop’s hand. But the whole play happened in front of the PU who should have a much better idea of where the runners were at the time of the throw.

Possible answer d—[The base umpire could potentially conference with the plate umpire regarding: 1) if the “feint” constitutes a “play” 2) Where were the runners when the ball was released] uses the words could potentially. It does not tell us that we must confer on this play.

I do not think this is a trick question. In fact, I think it is the FED telling us that it is impossible to cover all the possibilities in the question and acknowledging it is possible for the BU to need to confer to make the proper award. In other words, I still have e as the correct answer.

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3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

So let’s walk through the scenario presented in the test question, OK? We have runners at first and second so the BU is in the C position.

He turns with the batted ball toward the shortstop—depending upon the actual location of F6 the BU may not be able to also see the R1 arriving at second base. Additionally he probably does not see the BR from that position facing the shortstop.

The shortstop makes his first play to third base but throws the ball out of play. The BU has turned with the ball toward third and sees the ball go out of play. That puts both the original R1 and the BR behind him—he may have seen all runners briefly earlier but it is certainly a possibility that he did not see them at the time the ball was released from the shortstop’s hand. But the whole play happened in front of the PU who should have a much better idea of where the runners were at the time of the throw.

Possible answer d—[The base umpire could potentially conference with the plate umpire regarding: 1) if the “feint” constitutes a “play” 2) Where were the runners when the ball was released] uses the words could potentially. It does not tell us that we must confer on this play.

I do not think this is a trick question. In fact, I think it is the FED telling us that it is impossible to cover all the possibilities in the question and acknowledging it is possible for the BU to need to confer to make the proper award. In other words, I still have e as the correct answer.

D1 no way, D2 yes. If all of the answer is not right, then none of the answer is right.

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10 hours ago, Matt said:

None of these are correct.

All runners score except for BR. The feint is irrelevant.

Maybe I'm slow this morning -- is your point that the test writer changed the runner designation between the situation and the possible rulings?  If so, I agree that they should have been consistent, but I also think most could figure it out.

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9 hours ago, noumpere said:

Maybe I'm slow this morning -- is your point that the test writer changed the runner designation between the situation and the possible rulings?  If so, I agree that they should have been consistent, but I also think most could figure it out.

Shouldn't have to, and changing them mid-play is an incorrect use of designations.

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11 hours ago, noumpere said:

Maybe I'm slow this morning -- is your point that the test writer changed the runner designation between the situation and the possible rulings?  If so, I agree that they should have been consistent, but I also think most could figure it out.

That was my first thought, where did R3 come from?

 

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Messrs. LMSANS, Thunderheads, HokieUmp, et al.,

I don’t understand your objection to the BU conferencing with his partner to discuss whether a feint constitutes a play or not. The BU’s understanding of this concept does affect his award of bases (either TOP or TOT) in this play. What’s wrong with clearing that up? Is there some rule or case play or guidelines that tell us not to conference about this kind of question?

As far as I know the FED states in only one place that a feint is not a play (for the purpose of making base awards)—in case play 8.3.5H. So isn’t it possible and reasonable that some of us don’t know this part of the definition of the term play? And doesn’t the following rule tell us it’s OK to conference when we don’t know the proper ruling or are unsure?

2019 NFHS rule 10-1 ART. 4 . . . Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. But if there is reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made. The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision...

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I suggest going through each potential answer to a question and asking yourself, "is this potential answer true?"  

[I am going to change the nomenclature from the OP to the correct nomenclature]

Is "R2 scores, R1 is awarded third base, and B/R is awarded second base," correct?  No.  So, we eliminate "A".

Is "R2 scores, R1 scores, and B/R is awarded third," correct?  As discussed above, it is.  So, we know "B" is a correct answer.

Is "R2 scores, R1 and B/R are awarded a minimum of one base and potentially more based on the umpires' judgment," correct?  We all know this is incorrect.  So, we eliminate "C"

Is "the base umpire potentially conference with the plate umpire regarding: 1) if the "feint" constitutes a "play" 2) Where were the runners when the ball was released," a correct statement? 

This is a correct statement.  First, #1 is a rules issue (and not a judgment issue).  By rule, a "feint" is not a play.  Standard umpire mechanics (including NFHS Umpire Manual) instructs us to get together when we are not sure about a rule.  So, if the base umpire is not sure about a rule (i.e. whether a "feint" is a play) he should get with his partner.  Likewise, #2 is an example in most umpire mechanics manuals as to when a calling umpire (the base umpire) can ask for additional information from his partners before making his ruling.  In fact, I've seen this occur in MLB numerous times over the last several years on plays very similar to this one.  

Just because "D" appears to be a duck out of water in this list of potential answers does not mean it is incorrect.  I'm guessing that many of us, when we were reading the question, probably never even thought about this scenario.  Rather, our minds were probably already focusing in on where to place the runners and we became pre-disposed to eliminate any other potentially correct answer that didn't directly deal with base awards.  Answer "D" is a correct statement with regards to the play set forth in the question.  So it is a correct answer.

Since "B" and "D" are correct, then "E" is the best answer.

 

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