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Abandonment


NorthTexasUmp
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Thoughts??

 

PLAY: The game is 3-4 in favor of the visiting team in the bottom of the seventh inning with two outs and bases loaded. The batter takes ball four and heads for first base as his team celebrates in the dugout that the game is now tied. A few steps toward first from home plate, the batter pops off to the pitcher with some words like "too scared to pitch to me, huh?" Not exactly what was said, but you get the drift. The pitcher, already not in a good frame of mind, says something equally derisively back, and then both players run at each other, arms and fists wailing away. The coaches come out and help get the two apart and fortunately, the other players had not really moved. It all happened too fast. We know both players are ejected. But now what?

a. Eject both players, replace the batter-runner with another player and score the run, tying the game.
b. Issue a warning, leave everyone in the game which his now tied.
c. Eject both players; call the batter-runner out but allow the run to score. Tied ball game.
d. Eject both players and call the batter-runner out. Disallow the run. Game over and the visitors win.

 

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“A” is the only (valid) way! 

Incidentally, C & D are not only incorrect, but their incorrectness verifies that calling a batter / batter-runner out for a slung/flung bat is, too, incorrect! Fighting is an ejectable offense. Leaving your position to provoke or engage in a fight, is an ejectable offense. Neither of these negates the play for what it was. To invoke either C or D would be incorrect, no different than just Making Sh!t Up, right? 

Right? 

Right. 

Slinging (or, more appropriately, repeatedly slinging) a bat (especially after being warned) is an ejectable offense, no disputing that. To call a batter out for it? ... 

... you’re just Making Sh!t Up, then. 

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"D" is a correct answer, at least under high school rules.  "and then both players run at each other, arms and fists wailing away."  Both BR and Pitcher are ejected for malicious contact, BR is immediately out, being a runner who initiated malicious contact, and because BR is the 3rd out and was put out before attaining 1st base, no runs score.  Game over. Visitors win!

BR also abandoned his effort to run the bases when he charged the pitcher and began wailing away. You could call him out for that as well. Same result.

 

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Does anyone have the rule for this?  If we all speculate or give an opinion without a rule citation, then we don't learn anything here.

I believe A is the accurate answer, but I'd like confirmation so I can learn if I am wrong.

@Senor Azul any idea on this one, my friend? Thanks!

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32 minutes ago, Recontra said:

"D" is a correct answer, at least under high school rules.  "and then both players run at each other, arms and fists wailing away."  Both BR and Pitcher are ejected for malicious contact, BR is immediately out, being a runner who initiated malicious contact, and because BR is the 3rd out and was put out before attaining 1st base, no runs score.  Game over. Visitors win!

BR also abandoned his effort to run the bases when he charged the pitcher and began wailing away. You could call him out for that as well. Same result.

 

And exactly who is the pitcher maliciously contacting, and what would be the resulting penalty for that, making D incorrect?

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I was limiting my answer to FED rules, if the umpire determines that the BR (and possibly the pitcher as well) committed malicious contact upon each other. They're both immediately ejected, and the batter-runner is immediately out.

Rule 8, Sec. 4, ART. 2 (e) (8-4-2-e).  "Any runner is out when he:  e. initiates malicious contact;"

Rule 9, Sec. 1 (a) (9-1-a)  "EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:  a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base;

But I was wrong on abandonment. By Rule, abandonment applies to runners who have reached 1st base, and on the BR on a dropped 3rd or end of inning: 

Rule 8, Sec. 4, ART. 2 (p) (8-4-2-p)"after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; or NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

Rule 8, Sec. 4, ART. 1 (i) 2 p (8-4-2-i).  "The Batter Runner is out when:  (i) on a dropped third strike, he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area, or with two outs he does not attempt to reach first base before all infielders leave the diamond at the end of the half-inning;"

None of the high school runner abandonment rules apply (IMO).  And, of course, I could be totally wrong as to it all, and "A" might be the only right answer--in which case I look forward to being schooled :)  I will add that I believe under OBR and NCAA that "A" is the correct answer.

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Fighting and malicious contact are two different concepts. They have different definitions and they have different penalties. The terms are not used interchangeably.

Fighting is prohibited by 2019 FED rule 3-3-1p and the penalty is ejection of the offender(s). The 2019 FED case book has a separate section of case plays (3.3.1 Situations WW, XX, YY, and ZZ) under the heading of FIGHTING.

Malicious contact is made illegal by rule 3-3-1m which reads as follows—

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

m. initiate malicious contact on offense or defense;

And this violation is penalized as follows—

In (m), the ball is immediately dead, if on offense, the player is ejected and declared out, unless he has already scored. If the defense commits the malicious contact, the player is ejected; the umpire shall rule either safe or out on the play and award the runner(s) the appropriate base(s) he felt they would have obtained if the malicious contact had not occurred.

According to the 2016 BRD (section 348, p. 230) the FED has made malicious contact a Point of Emphasis at least 15 times—here’s what they posted in their 2014 POE--

Contact or a collision is considered to be malicious if:

The contact is the result of intentional excessive force;

The contact occurs close to the bag or home plate or above the waist of the receiving player; or

There was intent to injure.

Malicious contact can occur without these conditions if determined by the umpire, but these provide a starting point.

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6 hours ago, Recontra said:

I was limiting my answer to FED rules, if the umpire determines that the BR (and possibly the pitcher as well) committed malicious contact upon each other. They're both immediately ejected, and the batter-runner is immediately out.

Rule 8, Sec. 4, ART. 2 (e) (8-4-2-e).  "Any runner is out when he:  e. initiates malicious contact;"

Rule 9, Sec. 1 (a) (9-1-a)  "EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:  a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base;

I was talking FED, and your cites don't address the concept I was mentioning. There's a few rules and an interpretation or two you'll have to weave together, but if you find them, you'll see how D is impossible if you consider the pitcher's actions malicious contact.

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I think my point is that "D" is the result under h.s. rules "if" the umpire determines that the batter-runner initiated malicious contact upon the pitcher during a live ball situation, and the ball became dead because of that call. A runner throwing a punch with intent to injure (or excessive force :-) is malicious contact in my opinion, even if a fight develops as a result. If the BR took a swing at the catcher after ball 4, that is no different under the rules IMO than if he charged out toward the mound and threw a punch at the pitcher. If the pitcher is first charged with malicious contact, then the ball is dead immediately when that call is made. If BR then swings at the pitcher, he's ejected as well, but "A" is correct under h.s. rules, because the BR's offense occurred when the ball was dead. I'd just walk through the calls that were made in the order they were made to arrive at the appropriate result under the rules being applied. I'd honestly point at the 1st punch, "That's malicious contact! Time!" Everything that happens after that instant occurred during a dead ball, everything that happened up until the ball became dead can effect all runners. And, of course, if there never is a "malicious contact" call made, then "A" is the result. "What's the status of the ball?" That's a good question for me to ask myself whenever something unusual or protracted occurs and I ask myself, "What do we got?" Taking a deep breath will also slow everything down even more (also sends a little more oxygen to the brain which helps :-)

I'm not convinced "fighting" is germane, as the rules regarding fighting (as far as I can tell) deal with players leaving the bench or their positions on the field during a fight. I confess that I haven't read the case plays referenced above.

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On 12/8/2020 at 1:08 PM, Matt said:

And exactly who is the pitcher maliciously contacting, and what would be the resulting penalty for that, making D incorrect?

OK - they're ejected for "fighting" not "malicious contact"...because we know that punching someone in the face is actually benevolent.  :HD: But, I get your point if ONLY the pitcher committed malicious contact...since it's both, I think D "could" be right whether we use "double MC" or fighting as the basis for ejection.

The batter/runner should/could be called out for abandonment/desertion (I think "desertion" was the term that came up in a case play for a B/R that never reaches first base on his own accord??)...if he ran at the pitcher (or they ran at each other) he deserted going to first base before the fighting started.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Recontra said:

I think my point is that "D" is the result under h.s. rules "if" the umpire determines that the batter-runner initiated malicious contact upon the pitcher during a live ball situation, and the ball became dead because of that call.

Then you can't have defensive malicious contact AND the run will still score (unless the interpretations in 3.1.1--I think, as I don't do FED anymore, thank DOYC--have changed.)

However, as mentioned above, this is fighting, not MC.

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11 minutes ago, Matt said:

However, as mentioned above, this is fighting, not MC.

Fair enough. We may just have to agree to disagree. I got "malicious contact" as well as a fight. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive. I got a live ball until I make that call. "Fighting" is not defined in the rule book. However, everyone knows it when they see it. Malicious contact is defined. If the batter-runner throws a punch at the pitcher or runs out and tackles him, and the pitcher does not retaliate in kind, what do you got? I got malicious contact.

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56 minutes ago, Recontra said:

Fair enough. We may just have to agree to disagree. I got "malicious contact" as well as a fight. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive. I got a live ball until I make that call. "Fighting" is not defined in the rule book. However, everyone knows it when they see it. Malicious contact is defined. If the batter-runner throws a punch at the pitcher or runs out and tackles him, and the pitcher does not retaliate in kind, what do you got? I got malicious contact.

Malicious contact is not defined. However, it is generally accepted that it is contact as part of a baseball play which becomes excessive or intentionally injurious.

Fighting and MC are two separate things and are mutually exclusive. 

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I forwarded this question on to the State Rules Interpreters in the two closest states to me. I have only heard back from the Oregon SRI. But his answer was short as sweet. (For you guys that know Tad, that is right on brand for him.)

His response was "A. Path of least resistance."

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Mr. beerguy55, the following is taken from the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 8.3, p. 124):

…Any player who charges the pitcher—that is, in the umpire’s judgment moves a reasonable distance toward the pitcher with the intention of fighting with the pitcher—shall be automatically ejected from the game. Any instance of a batter moving toward a pitcher and retaining his bat as he moves will be the subject of severe disciplinary action.

And I have posted the following at least three times before (please note that this is not a case play from anywhere else)—

2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (chapter 6, pp. 50-51):

A runner who discontinues his advance or return to a base, progresses a reasonable distance from the base (usually toward his dugout or defensive position), and indicates no intent to reassert his status as a runner has abandoned his effort to run the bases. The cause of his actions (e.g., ignorance or apathy) is irrelevant. The ball remains in play.

By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, there may be instances wherein a batter-runner aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) it. This is herein called desertion

Although improbable, desertion can also occur after an award (5.05b1 Comment) (e.g., after ball four the batter-runner goes directly to his dugout as a pinch-runner goes from the dugout to first base) or on a batted ball. If such batter-runner reaches his dugout he is out for desertion.

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By definition malicious contact is a form of interference involving a runner and a fielder colliding (note there is no mention of a batter charging a pitcher to fight)--

2019 NFHS rule 2 SECTION 21 INTERFERENCE—OFFENSIVE, UMPIRE, SPECTATOR

ART. 1 . . . Offensive interference is an act (physical or verbal) by the team at bat:

b. when a runner creates malicious contact with any fielder, with or without the ball, in or out of the baseline.

Under NFHS rule 8-4-2c, all runners are required to attempt to avoid collisions. If a runner fails to do so, he is almost always guilty of malicious contact, which is one kind of offensive interference. Malicious contact carries the additional penalty of ejection from the game.

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Maybe I didn't read everything through in each post (but that hasn't stopped me before from speaking up, so.....)

Why in God's name is malicious contact coming up so much as I scroll down the screen?  There's already a rule that covers tossing both players for what they're doing.  I don't know the number, and I'm not getting up to find my stupid book now, but both players are leaving their "position" for the purpose of a confrontation.  Turns out, THIS confrontation involves throwing hands.  So ..... boom.  EJ both.

Did they get the smack-talker out?  No.  Then no out is called.

Did R3 do anything to get tossed?  No.  So, otherwise, he's awarded home but all the forcing goin' on.  He scores.

Replaced the EJ'd players and move on.

It feels like it took an awful lot of posts to get to a fairly straightforward conclusion.  Arguably, too many.

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Mr. HokieUmp, I did read all the posts so let me recap for you. (Fortunately I keep my stupid rule books at my work desk so it was easy to post that rule you mentioned—it’s 3-3-1p.)

Anyway there were two U-E members who were trying to persuade us that the act of fighting can be construed as an act of malicious contact. I guess we were using the wrong arguments since we were not able to dissuade either of them. Perhaps we should have mentioned that the governing state associations would disagree with them. In my state (California) the offense of fighting carries a more severe penalty than malicious contact. For a player’s first fighting offense the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) can mete out a three to six game suspension and for a coach the suspension is for the rest of the season.

I searched their bylaws and the term fighting has its own section but the term malicious contact is not used. I suppose the fact that the state association handles fight situations is the reason that the FED playing rules book does not go into great detail about fighting.

Then we waxed ecstatic over the fact that some state rules interpreter couldn’t seem to find any rules support for our position. But he agreed with us because it was the path of least resistance. Then you came along. I’m here for you if you should need any more summaries.

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Same scenario as OP, except catcher and Batter-runner exchange words after ball 4, Batter-runner clocks catcher on the side of the head with his fist. FED game. Ball stays in catcher's mitt, and catcher does not go down. Catcher does not retaliate. What do you got? And what's the FED rule reference?

I presume the consensus answer is that Batter-runner is ejected but not for malicious contact because punching someone not making a play on the player when the ball is live is not "malicious contact" in a high school game per discussion above. Batter-runner did not interfere with any play, so replacement runner comes in and goes to 1st and R-3 scores? But what is the rule reference(s)? I'll agree that's the right result, and I'll certainly call it that way if it ever happens. But I don't see that result in the rule book. And I'm o.k. with that. But if it is in there, I'd like to see it if I can.

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On 12/9/2020 at 10:45 PM, BT_Blue said:

I forwarded this question on to the State Rules Interpreters in the two closest states to me. I have only heard back from the Oregon SRI. But his answer was short as sweet. (For you guys that know Tad, that is right on brand for him.)

His response was "A. Path of least resistance."

I'd argue that D is the path of least resistance...if you go with A the game isn't over - you gotta keeping umping.  :BD:

So, according to Mr. Blue's posts above, not only is this fighting (both players ejected), but the b/r is ejected the moment he charges the pitcher (or within a step or two).

I frankly think both A and D are defensible.  A. B/R is ejected IMMEDIATELY, so his sub goes to first...or D. B/R is called for desertion before he is ejected for charging the pitcher.   

As both a human being and an arbiter, it taking the literal meaning of that word, I'd invite any ump to pass total judgment, including moral and ethical, and lay down the ruling that either punishes the aggressor...or lets you go home early.  :givebeer:

On 12/9/2020 at 5:39 PM, Matt said:

Malicious contact is not defined. However, it is generally accepted that it is contact as part of a baseball play which becomes excessive or intentionally injurious.

Fighting and MC are two separate things and are mutually exclusive. 

 

I agree, to a point, and understand the nuance, but since fighting is malicious it's easy to see how they can blend in one's mind.   The distinction of MC as part of a baseball play might become an issue depending whether or not you believe fighting requires two or more people...or can one person fight and the other not (I'd, personally, call that assault).   eg. I slide into third and F5 tags me hard on the head...not malicious or intentional, nothing an ump would call, and nothing that would bother a mature/intelligent baserunner....but I'm not an intelligent baserunner...I stand up and cold cock F5, knock him out cold.  I'm ejected...but is it MC (it's not part of a baseball play) or is it fighting (F5 didn't participate)?  I'm guessing fighting includes any kind of assault/attack.

 

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I really just don't see this being as hard as we're making it. Fighting and Malicious Contact are two (in my mind) very distinct things. Yes, fighting is going to be a malicious action. Of course. But we'd be stupid to think that the rules want us to cover a situation with one rule... Where there is another rule specifically in place to cover it. If they are fighting, apply the fighting penalty. If it's any other type of malicious contact, apply the malicious contact penalty.

We sometimes create problems with the rules, when there really isn't a reason. That being said, I think the malicious contact rule isn't a great rule. Can't we all just use OBR?

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9 hours ago, Recontra said:

Same scenario as OP, except catcher and Batter-runner exchange words after ball 4, Batter-runner clocks catcher on the side of the head with his fist. FED game. Ball stays in catcher's mitt, and catcher does not go down. Catcher does not retaliate. What do you got? And what's the FED rule reference?

I presume the consensus answer is that Batter-runner is ejected but not for malicious contact because punching someone not making a play on the player when the ball is live is not "malicious contact" in a high school game per discussion above. Batter-runner did not interfere with any play, so replacement runner comes in and goes to 1st and R-3 scores? But what is the rule reference(s)? I'll agree that's the right result, and I'll certainly call it that way if it ever happens. But I don't see that result in the rule book. And I'm o.k. with that. But if it is in there, I'd like to see it if I can.

You really need to get MC out of your head here. This is Fighting plain and simple.  Was the contact Malicious? Yes... of course. But not the same type as the MC rules are talking about. 

In your addendum to the play. Only the BR is ejected. The minute he throws the punch all play stops. You don't want kids running and and balls throw while the tension is that high.

The nice thing is, is that since the fight seems done after the one punch. You can actually jump in the middle of it and with your voice and presence, hopefully defuse the situation. 

One thing that we may want to talk about though... is do we officially distribute warnings to both teams about retaliation? I.e. hit by pitches? Or does everyone just assume warnings are automatic and any shenanigans will be dealt with accordingly? 

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