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Is there ever a time when it's OK to remove a kid from the game for safety when he throws the bat after every swing? I had 11 and 12 year Olds this weekend and had one kids that absolutely launched the bat with every swing. To the point I wouldn't let the on deck batter out out the dug out when this kid was beating. I got hit twice by this kid and the 3 base coach almost got hit. 

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I found a recent photo (with link)

Since I have been a member of this site I have read @maven' s posts with a certain level of regard that the information in them was reliable and poignant. Often the replies provide multiple methods to

You did not specify which rule set so we cannot answer definitively yet. If your game was played using high school rules we do have actual rules to give. However, I’ll go with Little League for now. I

You did not specify which rule set so we cannot answer definitively yet. If your game was played using high school rules we do have actual rules to give. However, I’ll go with Little League for now. I found a website called llumpires.com and I think it is owned by Kevin Hunter. His site is not directly associated with or endorsed by Little League. There is a blog about the topic of throwing bats that is dated June 10, 2016. Here is an excerpt that should help.

I was at a Little League clinic at which Andy Konyar, who was then the Umpire-In-Chief for all of Little League, was asked this question. Here’s what he said:

Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the “the umpire gets to rule” rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to “make up” reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

At the same time, this is behavior that we want to discourage. In an extreme case, a batter could seriously hurt someone if he/she is careless with the bat. Thus, this is what he recommended:

The first time a particular batter lets a bat go flying, warn the batter. If the same batter repeats the offense, go to the coach, and give the coach two options: the coach can either bench the player for the remainder of the game, or else you will eject the player.

An ejection, he pointed out, will carry a mandatory one-game suspension, so most coaches would be willing to go along with the “benching.” Either way, the player won’t be throwing the bat a third time during the game, and will be getting a strong message that he/she should change his/her ways in the future. But this is a per-player thing – if Billy gets warned, you don’t then take Richie out of the game the first time he throws a bat – Richie gets his own warning.

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Years ago, in a Pony game, I did just this.  (it was little dudes, like Mustang level.)  A kid had already tossed the back to the backstop once, and then made me hop over it as it flew by, when I was clearing the plate after a batted ball.  Both times, I'd spoken to the coach, and said that he HAD to get control of that bat.  Finally, on his third at-bat, he bounced it off the F2s shinguards, and I decided that was enough.

I restricted him to the dugout.  The other coach wanted an out - "Can we get an out there?";  having always been a natural smart-ass, I said "Did you get him out at first?  Then no, you can't get an out there."

I realized later that it's really only a HS thing for dugout restriction.  I had no regrets, though, because it kept the kid in his dugout, as opposed to just releasing him into the wild.  And who knows?  Maybe he spent some time watching other players to see how to properly release the bat.  (And before you answer @Senor Azul, I realize I had no rule basis for that call, other than whatever the Pony variant of OBR is equivalent to 9.01(c).

Given that was like 13 or so years ago, that kid is easily an adult now.  I hope I didn't start him, with that "gateway crime," down a road to prison and ruin.

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6 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Given that was like 13 or so years ago, that kid is easily an adult now.  I hope I didn't start him, with that "gateway crime," down a road to prison and ruin.

I found a recent photo (with link)

dahmer729-408x264.jpg

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16 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

An ejection, he pointed out, will carry a mandatory one-game suspension, so most coaches would be willing to go along with the “benching.” Either way, the player won’t be throwing the bat a third time during the game, and will be getting a strong message that he/she should change his/her ways in the future. But this is a per-player thing – if Billy gets warned, you don’t then take Richie out of the game the first time he throws a bat – Richie gets his own warning.

to add to the post that I quoted, you have to remember that if this is Little League, there is a mandatory play requirement.  If you or the coach "remove" the player, you may impact the result of a game protested for mandatory play.  You could force that coach into a loss and/or whatever action the BOD determines from him not meeting mandatory play.  As mentioned, and ejection carries  an additional game suspension.  When issuing a bench warning, it may behoove one to make this clear to the coach, that and ejection MAY be needed, as opposed to him "removing" the player, so as not to put the manager (or contest) at risk.

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Had it happen to me in a game, 10U

Batter let go of bat on a hit to the infield came around and whacked F2 in the legs well enough I heard the shinguards "CLACK" from the bat. As I was watching the play I did not see it clearly but could tell by the catcher yelped and was knocked to his knees what happened.  BR was put out at 1st. After the play I called time took a step towards the O dugout with the D dugout behind me hollering he should be out for throwing the bat.  I said coach. Thats his one warning.  Coach nodded said "understood" and also " "We have been working on that with him"  Meaning they knew he's prone to it.  But typing this out I am now wondering if he meant they were training him to do that :lol:.

Anyway I heard the coach next time he was up told the kid to hold onto the bat until he was 3 steps down the 1st base line.  Kid said yes sir..

 

NOPE  he still let it go on the back swing,  It was not as bad this time and it hit now one.  I could argue it was him just letting the bat go after a hit, but it had just a tad more "Launch" then a normally let go bat.   but it was better.  I let it go without saying anything.  

 

D coach said something  I looked and said quickly  it was much better and did not hit anyone, He's working on it so lets let it go unless it gets worse.

Was a local league game and both coaches knew each other he looked and me and nodded..

Lucky for me I did not see that kid come up to the plate again that game..

 

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When I'm Galactic Commissioner Sith Lord of Baseball, throwing the bat will merit an immediate ejection...at ANY level of play. If the rules reflected that, bat throwing would be reduced to nearly zero overnight. Funny thing about thrown bats, they don't know the thrower's intent. They cause the same injuries, regardless.

The game of baseball is dangerous enough without players, coaches, and umpires having to also expect part of the threat risk bargain is accepting injuries via thrown bats because we're more worried about hurting a player's feelings because they didn't get to participate that day then we are about someone getting injured because we have an escalation policy instead of an ejection policy. The kid who throws the bat gets a warning...while the person hit by the bat, possibly goes to the hospital?

The other ironic thing about most (not all) bat throwers is...it's often the #9 hitter who is only playing because Mom and Dad have agreed to take them for pizza after the game.

~Dog 

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On 11/23/2020 at 8:46 AM, maven said:

I found a recent photo (with link)

dahmer729-408x264.jpg

Since I have been a member of this site I have read @maven' s posts with a certain level of regard that the information in them was reliable and poignant. Often the replies provide multiple methods to help address a concern or a rules interpretation. As his handle indicates, he is the guy.

This post, however, brings all of that into doubt. This photo is not recent.

I'm not sure that I can continue to hold him in the same esteem any longer.

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On 11/22/2020 at 4:02 PM, Senor Azul said:

You did not specify which rule set so we cannot answer definitively yet. If your game was played using high school rules we do have actual rules to give. However, I’ll go with Little League for now. I found a website called llumpires.com and I think it is owned by Kevin Hunter. His site is not directly associated with or endorsed by Little League. There is a blog about the topic of throwing bats that is dated June 10, 2016. Here is an excerpt that should help.

I was at a Little League clinic at which Andy Konyar, who was then the Umpire-In-Chief for all of Little League, was asked this question. Here’s what he said:

Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the “the umpire gets to rule” rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to “make up” reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

At the same time, this is behavior that we want to discourage. In an extreme case, a batter could seriously hurt someone if he/she is careless with the bat. Thus, this is what he recommended:

The first time a particular batter lets a bat go flying, warn the batter. If the same batter repeats the offense, go to the coach, and give the coach two options: the coach can either bench the player for the remainder of the game, or else you will eject the player.

An ejection, he pointed out, will carry a mandatory one-game suspension, so most coaches would be willing to go along with the “benching.” Either way, the player won’t be throwing the bat a third time during the game, and will be getting a strong message that he/she should change his/her ways in the future. But this is a per-player thing – if Billy gets warned, you don’t then take Richie out of the game the first time he throws a bat – Richie gets his own warning.

I remember when Andy Konyar did a weekend "Umpire 1" clinic when I was in Virginia.  He told us all about this "Administrative Removal" procedure he was implementing.  Neither in the rulebook nor the RIM--nor any other b bulletins--was the subject discussed.  I understand the "humanity" of the concept:  teach the kids about safety and so forth.  Nonetheless, does the umpire not have a responsibility to ensure a safe field?  If a kid throws that bat dangerously, doesn't he need some kind of penalty?

That year, I was doing the plate--LL Majors--, and it seems half the kids on one team threw the bat a ton!  I got three bruises on my body from this.  I detailed the number of each violator and told the coach, that's their warning.  Well, after the third hit I took, I issued a team warning and that the next batter who threw a bat would be ejected.  In the next inning, a kid came to bat and hit the ball to the outfield and threw the bat that hit the fence 6" from the top!  Whirlybirding all the way up!  It was headed for the crowd, and 6 more inches, and fans would have been hit.  Bango!  He's gone!  The coach had a fit!  I told him I was about to suspend the game for continued safety violations and recommend a forfeit against his team if he can't get his kids to hold onto the bat.

"AR" would not cover any legal ramifications if a player, coach, umpire, or a fan were seriously hurt.  That's just not in the rules or the RIM!  I ruled in accordance with the safety rules (and my responsibilities as UIC).

Also, MPR does not pertain to a player removed for illness, injury, or ejection.

No player should be at the LL Majors level and not be able to hang on the bat.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

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In many cases the kid throwing the bat is the new/weaker player, good hitters don't normally throw bats.

So, you send the weak hitter to the bench and he's done for the game or you eject him and he's done for two games, in either case the manager is happy!

The rule "should be", throw the bat and you're out.  Managers don't like outs so maybe they'd work a little more with the weaker hitters teaching them to hold on to the bat.

One minor note, in Regular Season LL, MPR violations do not result in forfeits.  The penalties for MPR violations are in the rulebook.

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Circling back to LL rules, the manager can remove a player from the lineup with no MPR implications if done so for illness or injury. I'd consider bat launching a temporary illness, cured by practice. 

But, with no real rule to lean on, I'd give the manager two options if they object. Eject the player, or EJ the manager for unsportsmanlike conduct(why would you leave a dangerous player on the field?), and see if the "next" manager will remove the player. 

 

But in my experience, bat flingers might do this for just one game, for unknown reasons, and then just stop. It seems to come out of the blue for some kids. Typically 9-10 year olds. 

 

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