Fan behavior towards opposing coaches/team

[Scissors]

Here's what happened: 12U Little League game with the home team crushing the other team pretty hard. A lot of pass balls and stealing home. One voice from the crowd says something like "You gonna just keep letting them run coach?" A couple minutes go by with another pass ball and same voice says something along the lines of "Have some class, tell your guys to stop running." After the play was over, I call time and address the away spectators and say "You cannot talk about the opposing teams coach, we're not doing that." The coach came out and asked what I said to the fans and I told him, and he said he'd keep an eye on the parents. They kept ragging on me throughout the game, but there was nothing else towards the other coach from what I could hear besides some groans. Anything I should've done different? Keep in mind I could not see who was saying it but it was the same voice, and I'm still in high school so I'm not really the most intimidating person, though I try and put on my "stern face" and voice lol.

[HokieUmp]

What you do differently:  Don't talk to the fence.

If there's an issue - and I'm not completely convinced there's one here - you'd talk to the coaches.  To the home coach:  you *might* say something about "how about calling off the dogs, skip?", but you could certainly say "hey skip, you're starting to raise a lot of bad feelings here, and it might lead to some on-field issues."  To the away coach:  "you need to get your fans under some kind of control here."

But talking to the fans directly is just gonna lead to more bad things than good, in general.

[LRZ]

11 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

If there's an issue - and I'm not completely convinced there's one here

Agreed. The problem, if there is one, is not the fan, but the conduct of the home team. A fan/parent calling out the other team to display good sportsmanship? Not a problem in my book.

"You gonna just keep letting them run coach?" A couple minutes go by with another pass ball and same voice says something along the lines of "Have some class, tell your guys to stop running." The parent was not "ragging on" you but addressing the opposing coach. If it does get personal--"Hey, blue, do something."--that's a different story.

HokieUmp offered good advice about talking to the home team coach in a calm, positive way.

[maven]

11 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

What you do differently:  Don't talk to the fence.

If there's an issue - and I'm not completely convinced there's one here - you'd talk to the coaches.  To the home coach:  you *might* say something about "how about calling off the dogs, skip?", but you could certainly say "hey skip, you're starting to raise a lot of bad feelings here, and it might lead to some on-field issues."  To the away coach:  "you need to get your fans under some kind of control here."

But talking to the fans directly is just gonna lead to more bad things than good, in general.

+1, all points.

For whatever reason, a lot of daddy coaches seem to have bottomless pits of empty souls that require constant validation from children's games that they're worthwhile human beings. No lopsided victory is ever enough to satisfy these awful specimens.

That's not illegal in baseball, just bush and unsporting. 

[Scissors]

13 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

What you do differently:  Don't talk to the fence.

If there's an issue - and I'm not completely convinced there's one here - you'd talk to the coaches.  To the home coach:  you *might* say something about "how about calling off the dogs, skip?", but you could certainly say "hey skip, you're starting to raise a lot of bad feelings here, and it might lead to some on-field issues."  To the away coach:  "you need to get your fans under some kind of control here."

But talking to the fans directly is just gonna lead to more bad things than good, in general.

Thanks for the advice, I've never had this situation before so I didn't really know the best way to go about it. Would it be better to talk to the coach right away or wait between innings? 

[Scissors]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

Agreed. The problem, if there is one, is not the fan, but the conduct of the home team. A fan/parent calling out the other team to display good sportsmanship? Not a problem in my book.

"You gonna just keep letting them run coach?" A couple minutes go by with another pass ball and same voice says something along the lines of "Have some class, tell your guys to stop running." The parent was not "ragging on" you but addressing the opposing coach. If it does get personal--"Hey, blue, do something."--that's a different story.

HokieUmp offered good advice about talking to the home team coach in a calm, positive way.

Ok, I guess I thought it was a bigger problem than it was. If it does get to something personal, for example "Hey blue, do something," should that be addressed directly to the fans or ignored like any other quips from the stands? Is there ever a point where you should address the spectators personally? Thanks for the advice.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Scissors said:

Is there ever a point where you should address the spectators personally?

Not for disciplinary reasons, no. Someone else's job (AD/home coach for school games, TD for tournaments, head coach for others).

Depending on the situation, I might enlist the coach's help ("can you help me..."); in others, I'll go directly to a directive. "Coach, we're suspending play until you get your fans under control." This is especially effective in time limit games (for the team that's behind, which is usually the team with bîtching fans).

If he fails to do it, warn, then eject. We have authority over participants, not anyone outside the fence, and by rule we may eject anyone who fails to comply with a directive. (Local rules might authorize umpires to deal with fans, but that's a permission not a requirement—I'll let coach be the bad guy.)

[HokieUmp]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:51 AM, Scissors said:

Thanks for the advice, I've never had this situation before so I didn't really know the best way to go about it. Would it be better to talk to the coach right away or wait between innings? 

Personally, I'd wait for between innings.  You can pretend to be looking at a lineup change, or some other bullcrap reason.  But even if there's not subterfuge, it's at least a more discreet moment.  Part of the whole kabuki we do is "don't show me up" - in both directions.  To me, if you go in the middle of all that, you're kind of "calling him out" for everyone to know.  Which then lets the magpies on the wire chirp more.  (Also, if you do it in the middle, the team/coach getting crushed has their pride further insulted, and they bizarrely take it out on *you*.  I know, that sounds weird, but people are strange, man.)

What part of Virginia?  NoVa?  I lived in Williamsburg, and umpired primarily for EOA, based out of the Norfolk side of the James River.

[Scissors]

55 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

Personally, I'd wait for between innings.  

Ok so keep it more discreet, got it. Sounds like a less confrontational option.

 

56 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

What part of Virginia?  NoVa?  I lived in Williamsburg, and umpired primarily for EOA, based out of the Norfolk side of the James River.

Yep, Fairfax County.

[ArchAngel72]

Yep outside the fence is not your area.. 

 

I want myself want to kick them out but I been told as others here have Tell the coach of that side and let them handle it. If its a tourney talk to the TD and let them handle it. Unless it comes onto the field then its out of your AoR.

 

 

[HokieUmp]

I know this is already an "old" post, but in the interest of full disclosure - and to narc myself out - I will say that I ended up violating my own edict.

Two Sundays ago, there was a guy that ran his mouth the whole time.  I really didn't care, because it just washed over me, and it was entertaining - mostly talking up players on one team, giving fake stats, etc.  But about three innings in, in the middle of a throw to first off a squibber, an air horn blasted out.  And I already get cheese about players that like to yell things at those "opportune" moments - I don't say anything, or sanction, but it pisses me off.

So I went back to the fence and demanded to know who had the air horn.  They may have ID'd Big Mouth, but I just kept going.  I said "I can't believe I actually have to say this, but you don't do that in the middle of live play.  That SH*# ends NOW."

Point was made.  I turned back to the game.  His biggest take from that was - and I'm paraphrasing - "he did a swears."  To save face at the time, he asked "Why do you have to use a colorful metaphor, sir?"  (Had I wanted to keep THAT going, the thought that sprung into my head was "You used neither of those words correctly;  that wasn't even a metaphor, and you have NO IDEA how 'colorful' I can be.")

Turns out?  That guy wasn't even a fan of that team, or really any other (he was at a later game or two as well, with his commentary).  Just some white-windowless-van kinda guy hanging out.

But the lesson for this comment is:  I got away with it.  That could have gone badly wrong for me.  I mean, the air horn nonsense ended, so a win there;  but it could have gotten just uglier and uglier.  Even though TDs and their reps tend to be about as useless as  it gets, once the checks are cashed, they should be the ones dealing with that crap.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Nobody asked me but...

If some clown is setting off an airhorn as described here...

I am calmly calling time and calling my crew and both managers together far from the fence and stating that in the interest of player, coach and umpire safety, the game will not continue until the airhorn(s) are secured in the dugout.

If it's a game with a time limit, then I remind them of the time limit. Either the airhorn is secured or we hit the time limit and we go home.

If it's a game without a time limit, then I tell them they have 5 minutes to secure the airhorn. If we are unable to secure the airhorn in that time, I will again gather crew and managers and announce the game is suspended. I will book the inning information, count, outs, etc. and the crew and I will go home and contact our association authority and let them sort it out.

As someone famously said, I don't do it for the money but, I wouldn't do it for free...

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

~Dog

[beachump]

If it's outside the fence, leave it alone. Never address spectators it can only end badly.

[SH0102]

I know no one has posted to this thread in almost 2 months, but wanted to share a few things I have learned that have helped me.

1)  As others already said, you have to have open ears but a closed mind, meaning you need to hear what is said so that anything that is egregious or threatening is dealt with, but a closed mind in that what you hear does not impact your focus, thinking, decision making, etc.

2)  A mentor umpire who has trained me up enough to be an NCAA umpire now, gave me a line that I have since used and it has always worked.  When an opportunity arises, I will talk to the "offending coach" (coach of the offending fan base) and tell him/her, "Coach, if you can't get your fan to lose his behavior, I am going to lose you".  No coach will ever choose themselves being ejected over a fan.

3)  Find humor in (most) situations.  Obviously if someone is yelling racists, homophobic, etc comments, there is zero humor, but if they are yelling crazy, screaming rules that aren't correct, just laugh to yourself.

4)  As I had to teach my 13 year old son when he got his first experience with horrible fans, literally the worst I have ever encountered (one told my 13 year old son who was on the bases to do the world a favor and go die), you just do not engage with fans, ever.  The game was bad, but that was said after the game when he went to fetch his drink, and my son went to give him hell, and I screamed for him to get over here (to me) and we walked away together.  Just nothing good can come of it.  Leave the field with people only being able to say "that guy/girl was really professional".  They may have hated my strike zone, or thought I blew a call, but what I can control is my hustle, poise, and professionalism.  No one will leave the field saying I lacked in any of those 3

 

And have fun...think about being a fan at a basketball game, or hockey, and getting excited for a fight (in hockey) or yelping at an official.  You don't actually want someone to get hurt, and you forget about the fight pretty quickly.  How quickly do you forget about a bad call?  Unless it's on the game deciding play, everyone forgets in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.  Some fans will even say "ragging on the official is just part of the experience".  95% of people who complain about a call, or strike zone, will forget it the next time the ball is put in play.  I wouldn't sweat it too much, and those times where it is getting out of hand, take it up with the coach.

[maven]

Makes me wonder when a thread becomes a zombie.

 

[philaump]

On 11/7/2020 at 9:09 PM, Scissors said:

Here's what happened: 12U Little League game with the home team crushing the other team pretty hard. A lot of pass balls and stealing home. One voice from the crowd says something like "You gonna just keep letting them run coach?" A couple minutes go by with another pass ball and same voice says something along the lines of "Have some class, tell your guys to stop running." After the play was over, I call time and address the away spectators and say "You cannot talk about the opposing teams coach, we're not doing that." The coach came out and asked what I said to the fans and I told him, and he said he'd keep an eye on the parents. They kept ragging on me throughout the game, but there was nothing else towards the other coach from what I could hear besides some groans. Anything I should've done different? Keep in mind I could not see who was saying it but it was the same voice, and I'm still in high school so I'm not really the most intimidating person, though I try and put on my "stern face" and voice lol.

If there's a need to have ANY interaction with the team's parents, GO THROUGH THE TEAM'S HEAD COACH.

[philaump]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:13 PM, beachump said:

If it's outside the fence, leave it alone. Never address spectators it can only end badly.

If parents are going crazy, I go through the team's HC.

Here's what I tell the coach who's parents are out of control- "Coach, you realize that your team's parents are your responsibility?  If I have to come over here one more time- not only will they be ejected, YOU will be ejected as well"

[catsbackr]

15 hours ago, ShaunH said:

I know no one has posted to this thread in almost 2 months, but wanted to share a few things I have learned that have helped me.

1)  As others already said, you have to have open ears but a closed mind, meaning you need to hear what is said so that anything that is egregious or threatening is dealt with, but a closed mind in that what you hear does not impact your focus, thinking, decision making, etc.

2)  A mentor umpire who has trained me up enough to be an NCAA umpire now, gave me a line that I have since used and it has always worked.  When an opportunity arises, I will talk to the "offending coach" (coach of the offending fan base) and tell him/her, "Coach, if you can't get your fan to lose his behavior, I am going to lose you".  No coach will ever choose themselves being ejected over a fan.

3)  Find humor in (most) situations.  Obviously if someone is yelling racists, homophobic, etc comments, there is zero humor, but if they are yelling crazy, screaming rules that aren't correct, just laugh to yourself.

4)  As I had to teach my 13 year old son when he got his first experience with horrible fans, literally the worst I have ever encountered (one told my 13 year old son who was on the bases to do the world a favor and go die), you just do not engage with fans, ever.  The game was bad, but that was said after the game when he went to fetch his drink, and my son went to give him hell, and I screamed for him to get over here (to me) and we walked away together.  Just nothing good can come of it.  Leave the field with people only being able to say "that guy/girl was really professional".  They may have hated my strike zone, or thought I blew a call, but what I can control is my hustle, poise, and professionalism.  No one will leave the field saying I lacked in any of those 3

 

And have fun...think about being a fan at a basketball game, or hockey, and getting excited for a fight (in hockey) or yelping at an official.  You don't actually want someone to get hurt, and you forget about the fight pretty quickly.  How quickly do you forget about a bad call?  Unless it's on the game deciding play, everyone forgets in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.  Some fans will even say "ragging on the official is just part of the experience".  95% of people who complain about a call, or strike zone, will forget it the next time the ball is put in play.  I wouldn't sweat it too much, and those times where it is getting out of hand, take it up with the coach.

Yeah, you might want to rethink the highlighted.

 

If I was the coach, I'd tell you to pound sand.

[SH0102]

39 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

Yeah, you might want to rethink the highlighted.

 

If I was the coach, I'd tell you to pound sand.

@catsbackr....I am always open for suggestions and learning, so may I ask why you find that so insulting?

By rule, a head coach is responsible for the conduct of his players, coaches, and fans (exception would be when a venue has a site manager and then they would be).

Umpires can not throw out a fan, only delay the game and threaten forfeit of the game if they are not put in check.  

Telling a coach they need to handle their responsibility or they will be ejected, I am struggling to understand why you find that so wrong?

EDIT:  I see that you do NCAA umpiring...perhaps I should have clarified that I was NOT referring to college where a coach is not responsible for the fans.  The OP was referencing youth games, that is what I was talking about.

[catsbackr]

@ShaunH,

 

OK, I'll apologize for my tone.

 

I read your response as issuing the coach an ultimatum, even though the coach may or may not have even understood what you were talking about.  Generally, prior to getting to the point you got to, threatening to eject him from the game, there are warnings put in place.  I read nothing of any warnings, only you going to the coach and threatening to eject him.

 

I'm also not so sure a coach is responsible for the fans behavior either, I could be wrong.  By rule, a head coach is responsible for the conduct of his players and coaches.  I've never heard anything about fans.

 

Oh, and I'm very surprised an NCAA umpire would have given you the quote you used.  Very surprised.

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, catsbackr said:

Oh, and I'm very surprised an NCAA umpire would have given you the quote you used.  Very surprised.

Ditto. I'm surprised any umpire higher than junior high (except in New Jersey)* would say anything like this.

*This is not to say that NJ umpires are less competent--it is to say that when a governing body says stupid SH*#, it seems to be in NJ.

[SH0102]

4 hours ago, catsbackr said:

@ShaunH,

 

OK, I'll apologize for my tone.

 

I read your response as issuing the coach an ultimatum, even though the coach may or may not have even understood what you were talking about.  Generally, prior to getting to the point you got to, threatening to eject him from the game, there are warnings put in place.  I read nothing of any warnings, only you going to the coach and threatening to eject him.

 

I'm also not so sure a coach is responsible for the fans behavior either, I could be wrong.  By rule, a head coach is responsible for the conduct of his players and coaches.  I've never heard anything about fans.

 

Oh, and I'm very surprised an NCAA umpire would have given you the quote you used.  Very surprised.

@catsbackrI am new to this site, and didn't mean to cause waves.  I am always just trying to learn, grow, improve.  I appreciate being challenged. I wasn't upset, if I am wrong, I want to know I am wrong so I can learn from it.  

The only problem with forums, is similar to text messages, sometimes intent, connotation, meaning, get lost if not written exactly as you intend.

First, yes, it was an NCAA umpire, and a pretty good one, at that.  But keep in mind, this was during Summer tournaments for 14-18 year olds, not sanctioned HS and college games where there is usually a site supervisor.

In a youth tournament, at least where I am from, if a fan is getting out of line, it is the responsibility of the coach to tamp it down.  I believe that was backed up by many people on here saying "go to the coach".

As mentioned, if a fan is truly unruly, in the end, the game could theoretically be forfeited.

I believe the intent of that "quote" is to let the coach know, you need to handle your fan (who is undoubtedly a parent or relative of one of their players).  I have only ever used it once...in the game I referenced where my son, who loves umpiring, was exposed to the worst fan base I have ever been a part of as an umpire/fan/player.  One in particular was loud and rude would be the nicest thing you could say about him, I will choose to not use worse adjectives.

At the end of one half-inning, I went to their coach and told him, "Coach, I need you to handle your fan or I am going to have eject you".  He said he didn't know who I was talking about, and I said "Coach, yes you do, everyone in the ballpark knows which one it is".  I never heard a peep from that fan the rest of the game until the last out was made, at which point he told my son to do the world a favor and go die.

Point is, as an umpire I will not engage with a fan.  I simply told the coach to take care of it and he did.

You are right though, warnings should precede that point unless it was an out of the blue, just awful comment.

Thank you for your input, I sincerely mean that. I was not being argumentative.  I respect the wisdom any umpire shares, especially ones that have worked their way up to the college ranks.

[Senor Azul]

Here’s what the 2016 BRD (section 237, p. 158) says about crowd control—

FED:  The umpire may eject a spectator(s). (5-2-1c)

2019 NFHS rule 5 SECTION 2 SUSPENSION OF PLAY

ART. 1 . . . “Time” shall be called by the umpire and play is suspended when:

c. a player, bench personnel or spectator is ordered from the grounds, or a player is ordered to secure protective equipment;

Note:  BRD recommends:  Direct the home game administrator or someone from the host team to take care of any disruptive fans.

NCAA:  The onus for crowd control rests on the home team athletic director or his designated representative. The responsible person should be ready to use the public address system to warn the crowd about unseemly behavior, such as profanity, racial remarks, etc. Offenders may be removed from the game site. (rule 4-9)

Note:  If the AD is not present and has not designated a game administrator, by default the representative is the home head coach.

Little League rule 9.01(g):  Umpires may order both teams into their dugouts and suspend play until such time as league officials deal with unruly spectators. Failure of league officials to adequately handle an unruly spectator can result in the game remaining suspended until a later date.

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

NCAA:  The onus for crowd control rests on the home team athletic director or his designated representative. The responsible person should be ready to use the public address system to warn the crowd about unseemly behavior, such as profanity, racial remarks, etc. Offenders may be removed from the game site. (rule 4-9)

Note:  If the AD is not present and has not designated a game administrator, by default the representative is the home head coach.

This does not mean eject the head coach if they cannot or refuse to get fans under control. NCAA has conference coordinators who will put the screws to their member institutions if this becomes a problem.

If we have a situation where we have to do something about spectators, it will not only be a situation known to us, but also to the opponents; they are going to want this taken care of as well. As the cite says, the home institution is responsible for publicly warning the crowd for improper behavior. Even if the head coach refuses to address the crowd, ejecting the head coach if the situation isn't resolved is a tool that puts the onus on us to defend our actions. Instead, suspending the game will have us filing a report, the coordinator asking the visiting HC for their version of what happened and the home AD why there was no resolution, and the heat on the home institution. Plus it solves the situation by default--no game, no fans.

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, ShaunH said:

By rule, a head coach is responsible for the conduct of his players, coaches, and fans

I would be really careful about that.  I would agree to the extent of players' parents/immediate family (as a coach I had both my players AND their parents sign codes of conduct - my standard answer to a parent was/is "well, I can't bench YOU...")

Anything beyond that, you better be sure that that "fan" has any culpability to that coach...otherwise, as a prick opposing coach I may just start planting unruly fans behind my opponents' bench.

It can be surprising at youth/rec/tournament games, where they are held in a publicly accessible venue, the number of spectators who show up that are just there to watch some ball, and have no association with any of the players, or teams.   Or they know spectators and players on  BOTH teams, and would not be classed as a fan/supporter of either team...are you really going to hold the coach responsible for the behavior of a human being he's never met, simply because they're sitting closest to his team's bench...or are yelling at you about a call you made against that team (gosh, that must mean they're a fan of that team)???

You have every right to pause the game until the fan is removed...blindly assigning culpability to either coach (and potentially ejecting coaches and/or forfeiting a game) is a position not to take lightly...and you better be sure that that fan is indeed tightly tied to the coach or one of the players...I'd argue that if you're not 100% sure the fan is a parent you are best to stay away from that dog turd.   I'd suggest that even 100% certainty only gives you a starting point to have a conversation..."Hey coach, is he one of yours?"  "No?  OK, then I'm going to have him removed".