Jump to content

Sometimes 3rd World Plays Do Happen


Recommended Posts

Sometimes, third world plays actually occur.  This play happened in a weekend travel ball game involving 13u teams.  The game was played using FED rules with some modifications (the modifications are inapplicable to this play).  I assign the umpires for this travel ball organization's games in my geographical area.

Top of the seventh inning, tie game, R3, no outs.  Batter is called out on strikes.  The umpires then did what they normally do between batters (give each other signals, mentally reset, etc.).  The next pitch comes in and the batter hits a deep fly to left field which is caught by F7.  R3 tags and scores.

Immediately after the play is over, the defensive coaches start screaming, "he can't do that!  You called him out of strikes!"  Yup, apparently the only person in the ballpark who didn't know he had been called out on strikes was the batter as the same batter got back in the box and hit the very next pitch for the sacrifice fly.  On the other side, the offensive coaches do not dispute that the player was called out on strikes as they are only yelling, "too late! You let him get back in the box; you can't change it now!"

What would you do?  After giving some time for some responses, I will tell you what my umpires did and whether or not I agreed.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 29
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

So close.   Strike out + BOO out = ?

I'll bite and probably miss it given my performance on here lately, but in the interest of discussion and learning here goes nothing. I believe this would be batting out of order and since the pi

I'll bite and probably miss it given my performance on here lately, but in the interest of discussion and learning here goes nothing.

I believe this would be batting out of order and since the pitch has not been thrown to the following batter, then it can be appealed. The appeal would have the correct batter that was supposed to be at bat counted as an out, R3 is returned to 3B and the sac fly to F7 would not have ever happened technically speaking.

After the appeal is concluded, there would be 1 out with a runner on 3rd base with the now correct batter coming to the plate.

EDITED: Also, there is the out from the Strike Out of the original batter, so there are 2 outs total post-appeal.

Rule 6.03b

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I'll bite and probably miss it given my performance on here lately, but in the interest of discussion and learning here goes nothing.

I believe this would be batting out of order and since the pitch has not been thrown to the following batter, then it can be appealed. The appeal would have the correct batter that was supposed to be at bat counted as an out, R3 is returned to 3B and the sac fly to F7 would not have ever happened technically speaking.

After the appeal is concluded, there would be 1 out with a runner on 3rd base with the now correct batter coming to the plate.

Although you may be correct here ....... waiting for an appeal in a situation like this would be painful.   I'm going to go out on a limb and just correct it.  Then prepare for an EJ :D 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Thunderheads said:

Although you may be correct here ....... waiting for an appeal in a situation like this would be painful.   I'm going to go out on a limb and just correct it.  Then prepare for an EJ :D 

Well, with all that hollering from the coaches as it happens, then I'd consider that an appeal.  If they come out yelling, I'd probably straight-out ask them "are you appealing for batting out of order?" in this scenario.  I guess you could call it preventative officiating (although it seems more reactive).  I think you're right though, probable EJ coming - although I'd let them have a bit of rope to chew on me as I missed it in live action. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

MYTAB is a reasonable way to handle the situation. It negates the run, penalizes the offense for their error, and has rules backing.

I'm a bit concerned about the offense's response, "too late!" etc. Was there anything to suggest that this was deliberate? Did the batter walk halfway to the dugout, then return? I find it difficult to believe any umpire with a pulse would miss a batter merely taking a step out of the box after strike 3 and getting right back in. 

If I judged the act deliberate, I'd tack on EJ's for player and head coach.

FED rules are 7-1-something for the MYTAB, and 3-3-1 for the UNS.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, maven said:

MYTAB is a reasonable way to handle the situation. It negates the run, penalizes the offense for their error, and has rules backing.

I'm a bit concerned about the offense's response, "too late!" etc. Was there anything to suggest that this was deliberate? Did the batter walk halfway to the dugout, then return? I find it difficult to believe any umpire with a pulse would miss a batter merely taking a step out of the box after strike 3 and getting right back in. 

If I judged the act deliberate, I'd tack on EJ's for player and head coach.

FED rules are 7-1-something for the MYTAB, and 3-3-1 for the UNS.

 

sorry .......... MYTAB?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I'll bite and probably miss it given my performance on here lately, but in the interest of discussion and learning here goes nothing.

I believe this would be batting out of order and since the pitch has not been thrown to the following batter, then it can be appealed. The appeal would have the correct batter that was supposed to be at bat counted as an out, R3 is returned to 3B and the sac fly to F7 would not have ever happened technically speaking.

After the appeal is concluded, there would be 1 out with a runner on 3rd base with the now correct batter coming to the plate.

Rule 6.03b

I'll agree with this. The "correct batter coming to the plate" being the batter listed two down from the one that hit the ball.

(e.g., if the batter who batted twice was #1, #2 is out, and #3 comes to the plate).

I don't think that the batter just staying there is any excuse. Umpires were expecting a new batter, the batter should have known he was out and even if he didn't, the offensive coaches should have known and told him to get back to the dugout.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I'll bite and probably miss it given my performance on here lately, but in the interest of discussion and learning here goes nothing.

I believe this would be batting out of order and since the pitch has not been thrown to the following batter, then it can be appealed. The appeal would have the correct batter that was supposed to be at bat counted as an out, R3 is returned to 3B and the sac fly to F7 would not have ever happened technically speaking.

After the appeal is concluded, there would be 1 out with a runner on 3rd base with the now correct batter coming to the plate.

Rule 6.03b

So close.

 

Strike out + BOO out = ?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, lawump said:

Yup, apparently the only person in the ballpark who didn't know he had been called out on strikes was the batter as the same batter got back in the box and hit the very next pitch for the sacrifice fly. 

If we assume the PU punched out the batter ("Batter is called out on strikes"), the OC must have, should have also known the batter was out, yet let him come to bat again. Matt, remember the term "equitable estoppel"?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's what happened.  I talked to the base umpire after the game. First, he said that the plate umpire gave a loud and unmistakable strike three mechanic (which was a different mechanic than his strike one and two mechanics...as is the case for most of us (the late, great Harry Wendlestedt not withstanding)).  He said they both couldn't believe what happened.  Second, he said they got together after the play.  While talking, my base umpire told the plate umpire that it was BOO and they needed to handle it accordingly.  The plate umpire said, "no, its too late we have to let it stand."  Ultimately, the plate guy won out as he was a much more senior guy.  

I told the base umpire that he was correct and that this was easily covered by the rules:  BOO absolutely covered this situation.  I told him I understood why he backed down (being a much younger umpire), but that going forward when he is absolutely positive that a rule was being missed he could not back down.  I told him that when working travel ball, when his partner refuses to change a rules error he should say, "John (name changed), I believe we are absolutely missing this rule.  We need to call the site director to our field and get this resolved."  I told him that if it was a high school game (with no site director), I would look my partner in the eye and say, "John, I am positive that if the coach protests we are going to lose.  You're the senior guy so we'll do what you decide, but please know that I will not be able to back you up to our assignor when we lose the protest."  I told him to then call me immediately after the game.

The next question the base umpire asked me involved the fact that the coach never specifically stated he was appealing batting out of order.  (The coach had just come out and yelled, "they can't do that!  That's wrong, he struck out!)  I responded that in my opinion, that was good enough at this level of baseball.  In fact, I told my base umpire that if I had been umpiring I would have probably replied, "just to confirm....you are appealing batting out of order, correct?"  

Anyways, as for the actual incident, the defensive team did not file a protest after the plate umpire announced that they were not going to change their call.  (If they had protested, I would have absolutely overturned the call.)  So, when they were done yelling at us tournament officials about the "horrible umpiring", we told them that if they had filed a protest when this happened we would have fixed it and you would not be yelling at us about the umpiring.  We reminded them that the rules explicitly provided them with an avenue to fix this mistake (filing a protest) and that they failed to do that so there was nothing we could do.   

Alas, the run that scored was the winning run.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, gnhbua93 said:

That's not a third world play, it's a Washington DC play.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Some might say that Washington DC is a part of the Third World.  Just sayin......

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2020 at 10:53 AM, Thunderheads said:

I looked it up but didn't find anything ........that's why I asked

Maven has been using that for a long time...I remember his post explaining why that is the correct acronym.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LMSANS said:

Maven has been using that for a long time...I remember his post explaining why that is the correct acronym.

Credit where it's due: I believe I got that from noumpere.

BOO is more traditional and better known. And, in October, more seasonally appropriate.

  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, maven said:

Credit where it's due: I believe I got that from noumpere.

BOO is more traditional and better known. And, in October, more seasonally appropriate.

Also BTSTBWIYT = Being Too Stupid To Bat When It's Your Turn

 

Both of which help the official remember who should be called out

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2020 at 9:53 AM, Thunderheads said:

I looked it up but didn't find anything ........that's why I asked

Where do you look that stuff up on this site? But @noumpere's original post about it which received accolades from a lot of us had at least one post exorting the moderator to add MYTAB to wherever that list is. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2020 at 12:20 PM, lawump said:

Here's what happened.  I talked to the base umpire after the game. First, he said that the plate umpire gave a loud and unmistakable strike three mechanic (which was a different mechanic than his strike one and two mechanics...as is the case for most of us (the late, great Harry Wendlestedt not withstanding)).  He said they both couldn't believe what happened.  Second, he said they got together after the play.  While talking, my base umpire told the plate umpire that it was BOO and they needed to handle it accordingly.  The plate umpire said, "no, its too late we have to let it stand."  Ultimately, the plate guy won out as he was a much more senior guy.  

I told the base umpire that he was correct and that this was easily covered by the rules:  BOO absolutely covered this situation.  I told him I understood why he backed down (being a much younger umpire), but that going forward when he is absolutely positive that a rule was being missed he could not back down.  I told him that when working travel ball, when his partner refuses to change a rules error he should say, "John (name changed), I believe we are absolutely missing this rule.  We need to call the site director to our field and get this resolved."  I told him that if it was a high school game (with no site director), I would look my partner in the eye and say, "John, I am positive that if the coach protests we are going to lose.  You're the senior guy so we'll do what you decide, but please know that I will not be able to back you up to our assignor when we lose the protest."  I told him to then call me immediately after the game.

The next question the base umpire asked me involved the fact that the coach never specifically stated he was appealing batting out of order.  (The coach had just come out and yelled, "they can't do that!  That's wrong, he struck out!)  I responded that in my opinion, that was good enough at this level of baseball.  In fact, I told my base umpire that if I had been umpiring I would have probably replied, "just to confirm....you are appealing batting out of order, correct?"  

Anyways, as for the actual incident, the defensive team did not file a protest after the plate umpire announced that they were not going to change their call.  (If they had protested, I would have absolutely overturned the call.)  So, when they were done yelling at us tournament officials about the "horrible umpiring", we told them that if they had filed a protest when this happened we would have fixed it and you would not be yelling at us about the umpiring.  We reminded them that the rules explicitly provided them with an avenue to fix this mistake (filing a protest) and that they failed to do that so there was nothing we could do.   

Alas, the run that scored was the winning run.

 

 

@lawump  (not directed at you!)     :rantoff: That's awful.  The entire thing.   I certainly hope that the plate umpire got quite a talking to after this.  Seniority on a crew shouldn't mean that much that they botch / not fix a situation with a rule.  If you're not 10000% sure you are correct, then the crew MUST sort it out, setting 'seniority' aside!    First of all, it's crazy that the guy who just struck out (banged out loudly) got back in the box and no one noticed.  Second, ...at 13u, regardless ....  forget about the rule .... STOP IT right there and then.  TIME, sort it out.  EVEN if you have to enlist the BOO rule yourself (sans an appeal) ..., whatever, just make it right.  Again .... It's 13u baseball, we're not solving the worlds problems here. :ranton:  This way, you may have some confused parents, and of course some may not be happy, but .....it would mitigate what wound up happening I'd assume .... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Letting the run stand is the worst of all the incorrect ways to handle this play.

Simply undoing the play would have been a far better "wrong" way to handle this.  Give the kid the benefit of the doubt and believe he thought it was strike two...maybe he's deaf...or new...whatever...call it an honest mistake, undo the play, and move on...R3, one out, next batter.

Though wrong, by rule, it's more appropriate (at that age) than letting the play stand, which amounts to ignoring/misapplying the MYTAB rule.

Misguided intentions vs negligence.   They're both wrong, but one typically doesn't leave everyone thinking umpires are arrogant and incompetent.

And yes, coach is a moron for not protesting. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.






×
×
  • Create New...