Jump to content
urout17

"Can you get help"

Recommended Posts

Fed HS fall league varsity game.  Bottom of the first.  Runners on first and third, I'm in B. Slow roller towards 3B.  3B charges in, scopes up the ball and makes a play at first.  First baseman was breaking in as well on the pitch so the 2B was covering first.  2B was at first waiting on the back side of the bag for the throw which was high.  2B had to jump slightly to grab it, I'd say 3-4", but CLEARLY came down on the bag BEFORE the BR.  I yelled "I HAVE THE FOOT DOWN ON THE BAG BEFORE THE RUNNER, HE'S OUT".  To me it really was an easy call that I was 100% correct. Of course the 3B HC comes out asking me to get help on the call, saying that he missed the bag.  I politely said "Joe", I was exactly where I needed to be, had a perfect angle and I clearly have what I called. I don't need help with this one".  Of course he didn't like that answer and that I was now stubborn to not even appease him. I let him babble for about 20 seconds (nothing ejection worthy) before I said "Ok, let's get back to playing"

Believe me, if I didn't see what I saw so clearly I would ask my partner. My question is, how many of you would go to your partner just to keep him quite?  I was always taught to own your calls and only go for help if you absolutely need it.  Maybe I'm old school and don't measure up to this PC world.

Thoughts?  Thanks guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, urout17 said:

 

Believe me, if I didn't see what I saw so clearly I would ask my partner.

Thoughts?  Thanks guys.

I think the big answer is that sentence, is indicating you will go, if you feel you missed something.

Now let the guys who work over 50-100 or more games a year on the bases give the number of times they went for help in a season.

Assuming the pulled foot or play that they went for help on the first time that year, did not happen exactly the same way several times every game.

Maybe they can help with letting everyone know the exact distinction between an appeaser and a get your own call philosophy.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup...you were 100% on this. If you go to your partner there, you are sending a message to BOTH managers that anytime you are working their games they can come to you and get help.

There are some calls (nearly ALL of them judgement calls) where it's inappropriate, unprofessional, and unnecessary to get help from your partner...and what you have described here is one of them.

Managers are always looking for an edge...an opportunity to get a call for their team. As long as they are respectful in asking for time and address the umpire crew respectfully, we have to permit this as part of the administration of the game. Of course, there is a point where when they repeatedly ask us to get help (again, especially on judgement calls) that no matter how polite and respectful they are about it where they are now holding up the game and you would consider a more holistically direct approach to shut that down. At some point it becomes the boy who cries wolf...

~Dog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PU isn't going to have a better view of F4 coming down (or not) on the back of the base.  I'd tell that to skipper.

 

No need to go for help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, urout17 said:

My question is, how many of you would go to your partner just to keep him quiet?

I never ask for help just to appease a coach. NEVER.

Coaches have to learn when it's appropriate for us to ask for help and when not. Appeasement does not teach this lesson.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, noumpere said:

PU isn't going to have a better view of F4 coming down (or not) on the back of the base.  I'd tell that to skipper.

 

No need to go for help.

Funny thing is that the field we were on has a setting sun directly down the 1B line.  This was the first game we've had there since Covid shut us down earlier this year but we've both worked there many times over the years.  We pre-gamed this exact situation just to remind ourselves, not that that had any bearing on my call in this situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yup...you were 100% on this. If you go to your partner there, you are sending a message to BOTH managers that anytime you are working their games they can come to you and get help.

There are some calls (nearly ALL of them judgement calls) where it's inappropriate, unprofessional, and unnecessary to get help from your partner...and what you have described here is one of them.

Managers are always looking for an edge...an opportunity to get a call for their team. As long as they are respectful in asking for time and address the umpire crew respectfully, we have to permit this as part of the administration of the game. Of course, there is a point where when they repeatedly ask us to get help (again, especially on judgement calls) that no matter how polite and respectful they are about it where they are now holding up the game and you would consider a more holistically direct approach to shut that down. At some point it becomes the boy who cries wolf...

~Dog

 

5 hours ago, urout17 said:

Fed HS fall league varsity game.  Bottom of the first.  Runners on first and third, I'm in B. Slow roller towards 3B.  3B charges in, scopes up the ball and makes a play at first.  First baseman was breaking in as well on the pitch so the 2B was covering first.  2B was at first waiting on the back side of the bag for the throw which was high.  2B had to jump slightly to grab it, I'd say 3-4", but CLEARLY came down on the bag BEFORE the BR.  I yelled "I HAVE THE FOOT DOWN ON THE BAG BEFORE THE RUNNER, HE'S OUT".  To me it really was an easy call that I was 100% correct. Of course the 3B HC comes out asking me to get help on the call, saying that he missed the bag.  I politely said "Joe", I was exactly where I needed to be, had a perfect angle and I clearly have what I called. I don't need help with this one".  Of course he didn't like that answer and that I was now stubborn to not even appease him. I let him babble for about 20 seconds (nothing ejection worthy) before I said "Ok, let's get back to playing"

Believe me, if I didn't see what I saw so clearly I would ask my partner. My question is, how many of you would go to your partner just to keep him quite?  I was always taught to own your calls and only go for help if you absolutely need it.  Maybe I'm old school and don't measure up to this PC world.

Thoughts?  Thanks guys.

How many times does the manager ask you, "Can you get help on that?"  How many times does the manger ask, "Where was that pitch?"  I have had games where that happened a lot!  And the notion that EVERY call can be challenged sets a dangerous precedent.  In the OP, the ump explained in an instant why he made the out call.  Its the same as "Safe!  He's off the bag!"  That's excellent preventative umpiring because you are explaining a subtle difference that you saw that could have been seen differently elsewhere on the field.  You were within your authority to answer exactly as you did, and I think you get high marks for being so professional!  I have gone to my partners before in big tournaments on a few bangers, but not all the close ones.

I had a case where my field umpire called a banger and the assistant coach (NOT THE MANAGER!) had a fit!  He wanted the FU to come to me.  Then he asked me!  I told him it was his call.  Then I zipped it!  He went ballistic and acerbic!  I suggested to the manager the manager that his assistant coach had ejected himself out of the game.  I have had other games where managers are asking all the time, and then they come up with the big one:  "Call 'em the same for both teams, blue!"  Adios, my friend!  Also, do not tolerate any coach or manager who come trolling for a call, like between innings are later.  ("Hey Blue, what's your understanding ob Obstruction?" asked the inning after a field ump made a no-call.)

Depending on the level of play, the experience of the managers, and the circumstances of the play, you need to ask yourself how many times you would go for help especially if you have already provided additional information--like the OP stated--at the whine of the manager.  (BTW, the manager is the only guy who can ask.....I will not entertain anything from an assistant coach.)

Need to separate a legit question from whining!

Mike

Las Vegas

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, urout17 said:

Fed HS fall league varsity game.  Bottom of the first.  Runners on first and third, I'm in B. Slow roller towards 3B.  3B charges in, scopes up the ball and makes a play at first.  First baseman was breaking in as well on the pitch so the 2B was covering first.  2B was at first waiting on the back side of the bag for the throw which was high.  2B had to jump slightly to grab it, I'd say 3-4", but CLEARLY came down on the bag BEFORE the BR.  I yelled "I HAVE THE FOOT DOWN ON THE BAG BEFORE THE RUNNER, HE'S OUT".  To me it really was an easy call that I was 100% correct. Of course the 3B HC comes out asking me to get help on the call, saying that he missed the bag.  I politely said "Joe", I was exactly where I needed to be, had a perfect angle and I clearly have what I called. I don't need help with this one".  Of course he didn't like that answer and that I was now stubborn to not even appease him. I let him babble for about 20 seconds (nothing ejection worthy) before I said "Ok, let's get back to playing"

Believe me, if I didn't see what I saw so clearly I would ask my partner. My question is, how many of you would go to your partner just to keep him quite?  I was always taught to own your calls and only go for help if you absolutely need it.  Maybe I'm old school and don't measure up to this PC world.

Thoughts?  Thanks guys.

As a coach, because of the explanation you gave in real time, I wouldn't even leave the bench.  And you need to give a very short leash to any coach who does.

In fact, if you granted the other coach his request, that's when you're going to get an argument from me.  Because now I perceive you're pandering to their coach, and letting him push you around.

  And if, in this scenario, you did get help, and the other ump convinced you to change your call, I'm almost certainly getting tossed - at that point, I don't even care what the right call is.   You made a strong, definitive, well-grounded call, and then you let the other coach bully you into changing it...that's the optics you're presenting.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

As a coach, because of the explanation you gave in real time, I wouldn't even leave the bench.  And you need to give a very short leash to any coach who does.

In fact, if you granted the other coach his request, that's when you're going to get an argument from me.  Because now I perceive you're pandering to their coach, and letting him push you around.

  And if, in this scenario, you did get help, and the other ump convinced you to change your call, I'm almost certainly getting tossed - at that point, I don't even care what the right call is.   You made a strong, definitive, well-grounded call, and then you let the other coach bully you into changing it...that's the optics you're presenting.

This ^^^^

 

You used a mechanic and verbal to indicate what you saw, and why you called it. You used the tools in your box to communicate and keep the coach in the dugout or in his box. If he comes out, I am going to listen to his question, and then assuming it is a request for help, then I am going to politely decline, own my call and tell him that we need to get back to baseball. I 100% agree with @beerguy55 that if you go for help on this, you just opened Pandora's box, especially if you overturn a call you emphatically made. 

And to answer the OP original question... there is no good way for you to go get help on this when you clearly stated what you say initially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, urout17 said:

Fed HS fall league varsity game.  Bottom of the first.  Runners on first and third, I'm in B. Slow roller towards 3B.  3B charges in, scopes up the ball and makes a play at first.  First baseman was breaking in as well on the pitch so the 2B was covering first.  2B was at first waiting on the back side of the bag for the throw which was high.  2B had to jump slightly to grab it, I'd say 3-4", but CLEARLY came down on the bag BEFORE the BR.  I yelled "I HAVE THE FOOT DOWN ON THE BAG BEFORE THE RUNNER, HE'S OUT".  To me it really was an easy call that I was 100% correct. Of course the 3B HC comes out asking me to get help on the call, saying that he missed the bag.  I politely said "Joe", I was exactly where I needed to be, had a perfect angle and I clearly have what I called. I don't need help with this one".  Of course he didn't like that answer and that I was now stubborn to not even appease him. I let him babble for about 20 seconds (nothing ejection worthy) before I said "Ok, let's get back to playing"

Believe me, if I didn't see what I saw so clearly I would ask my partner. My question is, how many of you would go to your partner just to keep him quite?  I was always taught to own your calls and only go for help if you absolutely need it.  Maybe I'm old school and don't measure up to this PC world.

Thoughts?  Thanks guys.

I am going follow up on the posts above that discuss mechanics...but I have a little different take.

First, kudos for using a "tool in our box" (as set forth above) and giving, what appears to be in type, a confident explanation before calling the runner out.

Second, kudos for giving the explanation first and then banging him out (which is the way it is taught...as opposed to "safes" where we call "SAFE" and then give the explanation.  For example, "SAFE! YOU DROPPED THE BALL!")

My only suggestion...and the one that popped in my head before I even read any of the replies...is that your verbal explanation of the call was way too long.  You may have delivered it perfectly, but I can see that sentence as being one that could easily turn into a tongue twister or be one that gets delivered awkwardly with poor body language.  I would suggest keeping the verbiage more simple.  On this play, I like to point at the bag with my left-hand (the pointing is optional) and say loudly and sternly, "HE'S ON THE BAG! HE'S ON THE BAG! HE'S OUT!"  It is a four-word sentence followed by the normal 2-word sentence we use for all out calls.  I am pointing at the bag with my left hand as I'm saying the first two sentences, and then giving the "whacker out mechanic" with my right hand/fist as I'm saying the last sentence. 

If we commit to using standard language each and every time, we can actually practice ahead of time how we say and deliver those words so that when we use them in a real game they will come out confidently with the proper body language.  I'm not saying that one couldn't use your sentence each time...but that's a lot more to practice than, "HE'S ON THE BAG!".  IMHO, there is also no need to say "before the runner".  When you use my suggested language ("He's on the bag!") you're telling everyone in the ballpark that you know there was an issue as to whether or not the fielder was on the base before the runner got to the base; everyone knows that he had to jump to glove the throw.  Using, "He's on the bag" is telling everyone that you saw him come off, but that he was back on the base before the runner.  And, the advantage of my phraseology, as opposed to yours, is that mine is much simpler and easier to deliver. 

Just a suggestion.  Good job!  (I would NOT have gone for help.)

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, noumpere said:

PU isn't going to have a better view of F4 coming down (or not) on the back of the base.  I'd tell that to skipper.

I had a play that was a routine yet close force out at third to end an inning. The 3rd base coach wanted me to get help :rolleyes:. I told him, "Coach, my partner is 90 feet away, and I'm right here. I have the better look." If there was a pulled foot, sure I'd consider getting help. But not for this play -- especially after my partner and I agreed in our pregame that we wouldn't seek help from each other solely to placate a coach.

 

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

As a coach, because of the explanation you gave in real time, I wouldn't even leave the bench.

This works for clued-in coaches. In one instance, I used this in a basketball game while reporting a foul by adding, "She slid into the airborne shooter." The coach that was about to ask about the call decided he had what he needed to know (or realized he wasn't going to win an argument over the call) and returned to the bench without saying a word.

 

I also like @lawump's suggestion about using shorter statements. "He's on/off the bag!" followed by the appropriate call conveys what needs to be known in a concise manner. This is a good example where less words works best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2020 at 4:26 PM, lawump said:

I am going follow up on the posts above that discuss mechanics...but I have a little different take.

First, kudos for using a "tool in our box" (as set forth above) and giving, what appears to be in type, a confident explanation before calling the runner out.

Second, kudos for giving the explanation first and then banging him out (which is the way it is taught...as opposed to "safes" where we call "SAFE" and then give the explanation.  For example, "SAFE! YOU DROPPED THE BALL!")

My only suggestion...and the one that popped in my head before I even read any of the replies...is that your verbal explanation of the call was way too long.  You may have delivered it perfectly, but I can see that sentence as being one that could easily turn into a tongue twister or be one that gets delivered awkwardly with poor body language.  I would suggest keeping the verbiage more simple.  On this play, I like to point at the bag with my left-hand (the pointing is optional) and say loudly and sternly, "HE'S ON THE BAG! HE'S ON THE BAG! HE'S OUT!"  It is a four-word sentence followed by the normal 2-word sentence we use for all out calls.  I am pointing at the bag with my left hand as I'm saying the first two sentences, and then giving the "whacker out mechanic" with my right hand/fist as I'm saying the last sentence. 

If we commit to using standard language each and every time, we can actually practice ahead of time how we say and deliver those words so that when we use them in a real game they will come out confidently with the proper body language.  I'm not saying that one couldn't use your sentence each time...but that's a lot more to practice than, "HE'S ON THE BAG!".  IMHO, there is also no need to say "before the runner".  When you use my suggested language ("He's on the bag!") you're telling everyone in the ballpark that you know there was an issue as to whether or not the fielder was on the base before the runner got to the base; everyone knows that he had to jump to glove the throw.  Using, "He's on the bag" is telling everyone that you saw him come off, but that he was back on the base before the runner.  And, the advantage of my phraseology, as opposed to yours, is that mine is much simpler and easier to deliver. 

Just a suggestion.  Good job!  (I would NOT have gone for help.)

Thanks for your comments and kudos.  As all of us are taught, slow everything down before making your call.  It's easy to get caught up in a play like this to bag a runner out quickly.  I think my reasoning for making a call like I did was that I had time to see this play develop with the slow roller off the bat and both first/third crashing on the play, not the case on most plays but this one seemed to work out (at least I thought so). I agree, less words on a quicker play is always better. I had some really good instructors years ago and their words of wisdom stick with me to this day.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...