Jump to content
  • 0

Appeals


Guest Tom Uic

Question

In ASA rules a fourth out appeal is only allowed on a runner who scored during the play. Why is this the case?

For example, with two outs  and loaded bases, the batter clears the bases with the long hit and gets thrown out at third base for the third  out of the inning; now the defense makes a proper appeal on the batter- runner for missing first base . In ASA this appeal would not be honored because the fourth out was not on a runner who scored on the play.  Makes no sense because the vigilant defense now has no way  of negating the three runs that scored prior to the third out.

 Refer to the ASA rules supplement under appeal plays.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Answers 9
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters For This Question

Top Posters For This Question

Popular Posts

Why not ask the ASA? Why would you suppose that a bunch of (mostly baseball) umpires would know the rationale? At best, you'll invite speculation and guesses. Here's my guess: because runs are ha

9 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
11 minutes ago, Guest Tom Uic said:

In ASA rules a fourth out appeal is only allowed on a runner who scored during the play. Why is this the case?

Why not ask the ASA? Why would you suppose that a bunch of (mostly baseball) umpires would know the rationale?

At best, you'll invite speculation and guesses. Here's my guess: because runs are hard to come by in SB, and they decided that would be fairest.

Hey, that was fun. I can see why a lot of umpires in the forum just guess when they post.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
14 minutes ago, Guest Tom Uic said:

Why is this the case?

Although we always enjoy answering questions, and even bickering between ourselves, this is not really a "rule" question, but a policy question.

Despite the above, you never know.  There may be someone lurking on here that can provide an answer. We do have a fair number of guys that do softball.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
20 minutes ago, Guest Tom Uic said:

In ASA rules a fourth out appeal is only allowed on a runner who scored during the play. Why is this the case?

For example, with two outs  and loaded bases, the batter clears the bases with the long hit and gets thrown out at third base for the third  out of the inning; now the defense makes a proper appeal on the batter- runner for missing first base . In ASA this appeal would not be honored because the fourth out was not on a runner who scored on the play.  Makes no sense because the vigilant defense now has no way  of negating the three runs that scored prior to the third out.

 Refer to the ASA rules supplement under appeal plays.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

 

50 minutes ago, Guest Tom Uic said:

In ASA rules a fourth out appeal is only allowed on a runner who scored during the play. Why is this the case?

For example, with two outs  and loaded bases, the batter clears the bases with the long hit and gets thrown out at third base for the third  out of the inning; now the defense makes a proper appeal on the batter- runner for missing first base . In ASA this appeal would not be honored because the fourth out was not on a runner who scored on the play.  Makes no sense because the vigilant defense now has no way  of negating the three runs that scored prior to the third out.

 Refer to the ASA rules supplement under appeal plays.

I would post that question in this forum but this thread in that forum has a guy saying it's because players stop playing after the third out. That does not make sense to me.

https://forum.officiating.com/softball/100007-fourth-out-appeal.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

 

I would post that question in this forum but this thread in that forum has a guy saying it's because players stop playing after the third out. That does not make sense to me.

https://forum.officiating.com/softball/100007-fourth-out-appeal.html

The third out is the closest thing baseball has to a "whistle" - with that in mind it's the only reason that does make sense, and frankly the only conceivable reason to have such a policy, though I disagree with said policy (case in point, quitting after the third out has nothing to do with the action described in the OP). 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
11 hours ago, maven said:

Why not ask the ASA?

Because ASA hasn't existed for a few years now.  :shrug:

You wouldn't move the runners back if there were less than 2 outs ... why would you do it for the third out?  Same concept.  An appeal is not a force out.

Removing the run for an appeal on the runner who scored but missed the base makes sense (IMO).

What the USA rule does not spell out is what runs come off when the appeal is made on a runner who scores.  The rule does not specifically state it should be all the runs after that runner.  It just says that the run from the appealed-on runner should be removed.  (Just poking the bear for discussion here.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Because ASA hasn't existed for a few years now.  :shrug:

You wouldn't move the runners back if there were less than 2 outs ... why would you do it for the third out?  Same concept.  An appeal is not a force out.

Removing the run for an appeal on the runner who scored but missed the base makes sense (IMO).

What the USA rule does not spell out is what runs come off when the appeal is made on a runner who scores.  The rule does not specifically state it should be all the runs after that runner.  It just says that the run from the appealed-on runner should be removed.  (Just poking the bear for discussion here.)

All rules about determining which runs would score on a third out play would apply, as if it was the third out, including all the applicable time and force considerations (because, in fact, it is now the third out...the other "third" out didn't happen when a fourth out appeal is allowed)

By rule, if the "fourth" out appeal results in the 3rd out being made by a forced runner, or the batter not reaching first, all runs would have to be negated...which makes the scenario of the OP more ludicrous.

By tagging B/R out at third,  ASA (and I'm assuming now USA Softball) doesn't allow the appeal, and allows the runs to score...however, if the defense allowed B/R to score, then appealed to first, all four runs would be negated...and if instead of tagging out B/R just appealed to first for the third out, the three runs would be negated...and if B/R was savvy, knowing he missed first, would simply make himself the third out on purpose, including abandoning the bases, to ensure the three runs scored.  It is, really, moronic, on all levels.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 10/3/2020 at 12:39 PM, The Man in Blue said:

I can both agree and disagree in theory @beerguy55 ... and that is not what the USA rulebook says.

Why would the runs be negated?  An appeal is not a force play.

If the appeal is on a forced runner (or first base) it then follows the same rules as those scenarios....no run can score if the third out is on a force, or batter out at first base.

So, two out, bases loaded, batter hits a home run, R1 misses second...after the play the defense properly appeals at second...all four runs are negated, because the third out was made on a forced runner (even on an appeal after the fact)....if R1 had missed third it would only negate two of the runs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.






×
×
  • Create New...