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Appeal - Runner placement


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Ok, sorry for this ...can't find it in combination with brain-lock (lack of baseball, I guess)

R1 and R2, 2 outs .... (FED)

Ground ball to F6, ... bad thrown forces F3 to pull his foot, but is still called out by U1.   Offense asks for help/appeal and they reverse the call.

R2 (being 2 outs) and running on contact scores after the batter was originally called out.

The question being asked is:  Does he score, or does he get sent back to 3rd?

 

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I can't find the rule either, but I'll look more later.  I'm trusting one of our rules guys can answer this much quicker. @maven  @Senor Azul

NFHS 10-2-3 (L) (Powers/Duties of UIC):  "L. Rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage." I think that's the one. And, I was ab

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 10.2.3 Situation N:  With two outs and runners on first and second bases, B5 hits a ground ball to F3 who backhands the ball and shovels a throw to F1. The base umpire calls B

I believe the run would score.   My main reason is if you don't allow the run to score, then you are penalizing the offense for your missed call. 

Also, I found the below chart that I believe would also indicate that you allow the run.

ThirdOutAppeals.png?resize=350%2C524

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5 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I believe the run would score.   My main reason is if you don't allow the run to score, then you are penalizing the offense for your missed call. 

Also, I found the below chart that I believe would also indicate that you allow the run.

ThirdOutAppeals.png?resize=350%2C524

Understood, and makes sense.  For some reason I was thinking no, because he scored after the call was made.  But then I think like you said, ...you shouldn't penalize the offense for your missed call.   So yes, run scores ...got to be.  But again, I didn't/can't find the rule cite :rolleyes: 

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2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Understood, and makes sense.  For some reason I was thinking no, because he scored after the call was made.  But then I think like you said, ...you shouldn't penalize the offense for your missed call.   So yes, run scores ...got to be.  But again, I didn't/can't find the rule cite :rolleyes: 

I can't find the rule either, but I'll look more later.  I'm trusting one of our rules guys can answer this much quicker.

@maven  @Senor Azul

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34 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Understood, and makes sense.  For some reason I was thinking no, because he scored after the call was made.  But then I think like you said, ...you shouldn't penalize the offense for your missed call.   So yes, run scores ...got to be.  But again, I didn't/can't find the rule cite :rolleyes: 

That chart has nothing to do with "appeals" for an umpire to get help. It's for missed base appeals. The only rule is:

"8.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. No player, manager or coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection. Notwithstanding the foregoing, correction of a missed ball-strike count shall not be permitted after a pitch is thrown to a subsequent batter, or in the case of the final batter of an inning or game, after all infielders of the defensive team leave fair territory."

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11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That chart has nothing to do with "appeals" for an umpire to get help. It's for missed base appeals. The only rule is:

"8.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires. No player, manager or coach shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be subject to ejection. Notwithstanding the foregoing, correction of a missed ball-strike count shall not be permitted after a pitch is thrown to a subsequent batter, or in the case of the final batter of an inning or game, after all infielders of the defensive team leave fair territory."

thanks Jim ..... is there a FED equivalent to that?

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Jimurray, that is the OBR rule, right? Do you have a FED cite or answer, which is what Jeff was asking? I don't work FED, and am not familiar with those rules.

Oops, just saw Jeff's question--posts passing in the night.

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Yes, there's a FED equivalent, but that's not the applicable rule. 8.02(c) (and FED 10-something) applies to judgment calls that are overturned. The question concerns appeal plays and counting a run without an appeal. An appeal play is not the overturn of a previous ruling: in granting an appeal, we're not saying that earlier we judged that he touched the base.

The operative principle is that a runner is credited with acquiring a base legally by touching it; he is also credited with acquiring it if he passes it until the defense properly appeals the missed base. The last part is, IIRC, interpretation, not black letter rule. 

I'm still mad that FED cut off my access to the rule book through Arbiter, so I'm not looking it up using my paper book. 8-2-6 (the appeal rule) might say this explicitly.

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NFHS 10-2-3 (L) (Powers/Duties of UIC):  "L. Rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."

I think that's the one. And, I was able to find this probably bootleg/possibly dark web/unauthorized web-link to the 2020 NFHS Rules which have also been taken down from our State's website after the season was cancelled (not sure they refunded my registration money, though :-)

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/9a6c-1683944/NFHS.pdf

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2019 NFHS Case Book Play 10.2.3 Situation N:  With two outs and runners on first and second bases, B5 hits a ground ball to F3 who backhands the ball and shovels a throw to F1. The base umpire calls B5 out, but B5 asks the base umpire to check with the plate umpire because B5 thought F1 pulled his foot. During the discussion, R2 from second scores. The plate umpire indicates that F1 did in fact pull his foot. The base umpire then calls the batter-runner safe. The coach of the defensive team tells the umpire that because the call was reversed, a run scored. Therefore, R2 should have to return to third base. RULING:  The umpire shall return R2 to third, R1 to second, and B5 to first base in accordance with Rule 10-2-3l. COMMENT:  If proper umpire mechanics were used, this situation would not have occurred.

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17 hours ago, maven said:

Yes, there's a FED equivalent, but that's not the applicable rule. 8.02(c) (and FED 10-something) applies to judgment calls that are overturned. The question concerns appeal plays and counting a run without an appeal. An appeal play is not the overturn of a previous ruling: in granting an appeal, we're not saying that earlier we judged that he touched the base.

Sorry, somehow I became convinced that this thread was about appeal plays, not reversing umpire judgment.

Yes, all codes allow umpires to "fix" the situation after a judgment call is reversed. This can include placing runners, calling outs, and scoring or unscoring runs.

Carry on!

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4 hours ago, maven said:

Sorry, somehow I became convinced that this thread was about appeal plays, not reversing umpire judgment.

Yes, all codes allow umpires to "fix" the situation after a judgment call is reversed. This can include placing runners, calling outs, and scoring or unscoring runs.

Carry on!

Okay. Glad I spotted this thread. I had this come up this summer and my question is this.... What is the proper mechanic?

Same senecio as OP, so obviously I'm in C. ball hit to F6 in a way that forces me further to 3rd. Wide throw and I really have no idea if he stayed on.

In this situation should BU "guess" and make a call (maybe fix it later) or immediately ask for help from PU? 

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14 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Okay. Glad I spotted this thread. I had this come up this summer and my question is this.... What is the proper mechanic?

Same senecio as OP, so obviously I'm in C. ball hit to F6 in a way that forces me further to 3rd. Wide throw and I really have no idea if he stayed on.

In this situation should BU "guess" and make a call (maybe fix it later) or immediately ask for help from PU? 

That's the problem with 2-man, you can't possibly see everything.

Acknowledging that, yes, you would make your best guess by pausing, reading & reacting to what you saw from C.   This is why the PU also should be going to the 45-foot line and checking for pulled foot at 1B.   Now, if there's a runner at 3B, then he may not make it up the line that far, but he can still check for pulled foot. 

In my case, my partner knows I'll go with what I saw/thought I saw... and if questioned, we immediately will get together.    Any good PU though knows this is your call and shouldn't override you, you should go to him for help though if you aren't sure.  This is good game management to show you want to do a good job and get the call right.  This can possibly earn you some respect from the coaches for the next time there's a banger that doesn't go their way, but it doesn't always do that, but it is the right thing to do in my opinion.

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7 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

That's the problem with 2-man, you can't possibly see everything.

Acknowledging that, yes, you would make your best guess by pausing, reading & reacting to what you saw from C.   This is why the PU also should be going to the 45-foot line and checking for pulled foot at 1B.   Now, if there's a runner at 3B, then he may not make it up the line that far, but he can still check for pulled foot. 

In my case, my partner knows I'll go with what I saw/thought I saw... and if questioned, we immediately will get together.    Any good PU though knows this is your call and shouldn't override you, you should go to him for help though if you aren't sure.  This is good game management to show you want to do a good job and get the call right.  This can possibly earn you some respect from the coaches for the next time there's a banger that doesn't go their way, but it doesn't always do that, but it is the right thing to do in my opinion.

Okay. So go ahead and make a call, then if questioned get help. I have no problem with that and that's what I did. But when I did that the runner rounding third stopped. So in essence I ended the inning, only to be reversed later. Basically I cost the offense a run. 

After the game I thought to myself maybe I should have yelled "John, did he stay on" immediately and gotten immediate help.

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5 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Okay. So go ahead and make a call, then if questioned get help. I have no problem with that and that's what I did. But when I did that the runner rounding third stopped. So in essence I ended the inning, only to be reversed later. Basically I cost the offense a run. 

After the game I thought to myself maybe I should have yelled "John, did he stay on" immediately and gotten immediate help.

And if John isn't looking (because this happens at the *exact* same moment R2 is rounding third, or PU gets blocked out or something), then you have to make up a call and everyone knows it.

There's no answer that works all of the time.  You can get better odds if you pay attention not only to the play but to what your partner is / can be looking at, and some knowledge of his abilities.  When in doubt, I favor making the call first.

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19 minutes ago, noumpere said:

And if John isn't looking (because this happens at the *exact* same moment R2 is rounding third, or PU gets blocked out or something), then you have to make up a call and everyone knows it.

There's no answer that works all of the time.  You can get better odds if you pay attention not only to the play but to what your partner is / can be looking at, and some knowledge of his abilities.  When in doubt, I favor making the call first.

Totally agree.  There's nothing better than working with a regular partner who knows where you will be and you know where he is almost always.  That's when you truly are a team also and it makes it so much easier to do a good job!

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I know not everyone shares this opinion (and most probably do not). Multiple runners, 2 outs, ground ball to F-6 that makes BU move closer to 3rd to avoid batted ball, giving him an even worse angle at 1st (or 1st play goes to 3rd and BU is straight lined on the throw to 1st),  possible pulled foot, BU looks and sees PU looking up the line, so he knows PU is in position and has eyes on the play. This is the one situation that Jim Evans said is appropriate (and proper) for BU to immediately go for help, and we even practiced the mechanic at his clinic. Ask a positive question, not a negative one:  BU points to partner, “Did he hold the bag?”  If the answer is “Yes, he did!” BU punches him out and one side of the bleachers cheers loudly. If it’s “No,” then BU immediately calls BR safe, and it’s game on for all runners. Nothing to fix, and a SH*# storm is averted. Now, I’ve got partners who will always refuse to go for help on a pulled foot no matter what the situation is and no matter how straight-lined they are, as if doing so is bush league, and they’re great umpires. I got no problem with that.  But I still pre-game it with them when I’m on the bases. The key to this mechanic is that BU has got to look at his partner and see him on and staring up the line b4 going for help. Also, ask that positive question. Don’t ask, “Did he pull his foot?” If the mechanic is done properly, it looks great, and if F-3 held the bag, everyone will cheer as if F-3 did something spectacular to end the inning.

And the other thing is that this is a rare occurrence. Jim Evans claimed that in his career, he only went for help during a play twice—and both times it was for a possible pulled foot with multiple runners and two outs when he was straight-lined on the throw to 1st.

One additional note—if PU gives no sign or says nothing, then call BR out, and when Skip comes running out, you don’t need to check with your partner, because you already know he’s got nothing for you. 

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In a perfect world, your base umpire/partner would do her or his job by getting to the 1B side of the pitcher's mound to get a good look at the play and he should make his call. 

Mechanically, be careful with this...as in the case play, with R2, most teams keep the runner moving full tilt to home plate...so IF your partner correctly has F3 off of the base, PU needs to be prepared for a play at the plate. If PU "false hustles" down to the 45' line to see the PF/ST, it's going to look pretty bad for your crew when every one is looking at your PU for a decision on the banger at the plate. 

This play can be covered with two umpires. I respect everything Evans teaches..but we need to remember that he's training umpires for professional baseball on professionally manicured fields where there are no bad hops and where players more often than not execute what they're wanting to do. 

We work the amateur game....so we can't always do things exactly by the book...that doesn't mean we ignore what he's teaching or make things up per se...but we also need to trust our base umpire to do her or his job so you can do yours...which is definitely what the professional game teaches. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In a perfect world, your base umpire/partner would do her or his job by getting to the 1B side of the pitcher's mound to get a good look at the play and he should make his call. 

 

That is true but sometimes you cannot simply get to the 1B without being in the way. In the situation I describe above for me to get there I would have caused the SS to avoid me on a play where he only had time to catch/throw the ball off balance.

Are you saying do your job regardless and don't pay attention to where the ball is hit or where the throw may come from, just get to the proper position even if your in the line of the throw?

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16 minutes ago, aaluck said:

That is true but sometimes you cannot simply get to the 1B without being in the way. In the situation I describe above for me to get there I would have caused the SS to avoid me on a play where he only had time to catch/throw the ball off balance.

Are you saying do your job regardless and don't pay attention to where the ball is hit or where the throw may come from, just get to the proper position even if your in the line of the throw?

No one (I don't think) is saying the latter.

 

But, you can move to a different spot to see the play -- maybe about in the 1b-2b baseline, or maybe even with the 45' running lane, but a step "forward" (toward the home-1b line) of the mound.  Or, get out of the way and then move back toward the "right" position as the ball is thrown (much like covering on a steal, or making the "double play drift."  You still need to be ready for any throwback to another base on the second play.

 

And, while you might not always be able to do one of those things, in general you can do them far more often than actually happens. (generic "you" not aaluck specifically)

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On 9/23/2020 at 12:37 PM, aaluck said:

Are you saying do your job regardless and don't pay attention to where the ball is hit or where the throw may come from, just get to the proper position even if your in the line of the throw?

No. 

With 2 outs and a ground ball to the shortstop a base umpire should be able to get to the 1B side of the pitcher's mound. In fact, I've seen some guys start in "B" in these scenarios for that exact reason. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Back to the original question ... I fully agree with the case play that @Senor Azul posted, but would caution the guidance can be wrong with a slight tweak to the situation.

In the case play, the runner scored during (and thus arguably because of) the appeal process/discussion.  If the runner was scoring on his own and legitimately ... meaning there was no defensive play to be made IF it hadn't been the third out ... then I am leaving the run on the board as my actions did not cause or allow the run, the defense did.  

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