all-star Official AllStar Cobalt Product Launch

[kylejt]

Tiny springs, perhaps?

 

[Rock Bottom]

10 hours ago, kylejt said:

Tiny springs, perhaps?

 

I'm thinking something flexible like I've seen on thin running hats.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, JimKirk said:

So, yes, you’re going to have watch your 6-stitch traditional cap with these, too. I always err on the side of caution, and I’m suggesting 4-stitch all the way when you wear the 2 style masks above if you wear a traditional cap.

I myself can fit a 6-stitch in my FM4K w/ LUC-Mag pads, with clearance. I can guarantee that if the distribution plate was in the upper pad, with a hat, it would fit, and fit well. Of course, as Stan mentioned, the need for a distribution plate on the upper pad isn’t necessary when you’ve got a catcher, now umpire, wearing a skullcap.

I have such a gripe, though, with outfitters that only offer association hats in 4 or 8-stitch. Worse yet, these hats cost $25+ each!! So, instead of getting one 6-stitch hat, I now am pushed to get two?!!! No way place-that-rhymes-with-BoutFest-Afficials!!!

[Thunderheads]

Guys.....@JimKirk ....  @Matt Arcovio
If I wanted to, could I do an outdoor matte navy krylon type paint on the Cobalt Skully? Maybe?

Just a thought

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

[MadMax]

6 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

If I wanted to, could I do an outdoor matte navy krylon type paint on the Cobalt Skully? Maybe?

What am I, chopped liver?

And when did the specter of modifying something ever stop you, Mister Make-My-Visor-Fit-My-FM4K-Mask??

Of course you can repaint the Skuly, like any other ABS-shelled helmet on the market. And no, it doesn’t affect the integrity (unless you do something asinine in your process like a chemical bath or a blowtorch). What it does affect is warranty, which is something a lot of people (not you, Jeff) seem to have lost their grasp on the concept and definition of. Repainting or altering a product may incur consequences; far too often nowadays, we (our culture) assume no consequences will occur, and any and all liability should fall on someone else (in this case, the helmet manufacturer).

I’m with ya – I’d love to see this new Skuly out in navy, too... Anything to get our navy-wearing colleagues less of an excuse to wear cheap, poorly made & maintained, ill-fitted black HSMs (or in some rare, extreme cases, red ones!). It would signify that a manufacturer has really done its due diligence and its homework on us – at all levels. Can we expect them to? No, that’s not fair. 

Want to know how to repaint that helmet “professionally”? Ask @Stk004 to concur, we’ve repainted a helmet or two of his...

[Mr Ump]

BACK TO THE VIDEO PRESENTATION...I was blown away by being able to see the thought process, equipment, testing, work lab and workmanship put into the new Colbalt line. That is a process that other safety equipment makers need to share with consumers. A new standard of expectation has been set for me.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Mr Ump said:

That is a process that other safety equipment makers need to share with consumers.

Doesn’t even have to be consumers! Just us umpires! Could you imagine Wilson trying to do an exposé on their process?

———

Yes, I hammer on Wilson relentlessly. Know the adage, “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em”? I am convinced that Wilson’s baseball model is, “If you can’t beat ‘em, write a big fat check and pay the League to keep your competitors out.”

[Thunderheads]

14 hours ago, Mr Ump said:

BACK TO THE VIDEO PRESENTATION...I was blown away by being able to see the thought process, equipment, testing, work lab and workmanship put into the new Colbalt line. That is a process that other safety equipment makers need to share with consumers. A new standard of expectation has been set for me.

What's better is this:

It's not just the Cobalt stuff they did / do testing on ........ they've been testing their equipment on their air-cannon for quite some time!  NO OTHER mfg does what All-Star does!  

[SeeingEyeDog]

Recently, Ty Unthank did a product review on the F3 mask V2. In that review he said that mask receives the top NOCSAE rating.

I would like to hear from All-Star, Wilson, Diamond and others' counter to that...I'm guessing price and weight but, it would still be good to hear from those guys. And also, how close are they on their NOCSAE ratings to the F3? 1%? 5%? 10%? Something else?

If F3 (and perhaps others) are making protection equipment which exceeds the mininum ratings that the marketplace is buying and these companies are profitable, is the NOCSAE minimum rating too low?

~Dog

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Recently, Ty Unthank did a product review on the F3 mask V2. In that review he said that mask receives the top NOCSAE rating.

I would like to hear from All-Star, Wilson, Diamond and others' counter to that...I'm guessing price and weight but, it would still be good to hear from those guys. And also, how close are they on their NOCSAE ratings to the F3? 1%? 5%? 10%? Something else?

If F3 (and perhaps others) are making protection equipment which exceeds the mininum ratings that the marketplace is buying and these companies are profitable, is the NOCSAE minimum rating too low?

~Dog

All-Star was also the first to start testing their equipment for NOCSAE ratings.  They do comply.  However, ... I think that's in conjunction with a helmet (not 100% sure though).  Also, I believe NOCSAE ratings are either pass or fail, ...there's no "margin - better - worse" if that makes sense

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thanks, @Thunderheads! I'm going to read up on NOCSAE a bit more. There is clearly a lot I don't know. I'll link anything of interest...

~Dog

[Matt Arcovio]

44 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Recently, Ty Unthank did a product review on the F3 mask V2. In that review he said that mask receives the top NOCSAE rating.

I would like to hear from All-Star, Wilson, Diamond and others' counter to that...I'm guessing price and weight but, it would still be good to hear from those guys. And also, how close are they on their NOCSAE ratings to the F3? 1%? 5%? 10%? Something else?

If F3 (and perhaps others) are making protection equipment which exceeds the mininum ratings that the marketplace is buying and these companies are profitable, is the NOCSAE minimum rating too low?

~Dog

I can speak to this. It is not to be construed as me speaking on behalf of AllStar or anything else. 

A couple years ago I spoke to somebody at NOCSEA regarding their certification procedure. They require a helmets and masks to demonstrate Severity Index (SI) numbers below 1200 to receive a certification. As Stan mentioned in the stream, that number correlates with a likelihood of skull fracture, not concussion. In my opinion, this is a very low bar. Companies will vary in their approach. Some will shoot for 1199 others will strive for 0. There are no levels of NOCSEA certification. A product is either certified or not. So Ty was technically correct, but every mask that gets a NOCSEA cert gets the “top” cert. 

No umpire specific equipment is required to meet NOCSEA certification. You will see the stamps on HSM’s, because NFHS requires it for players, but not on chest protectors because no catcher will wear an umpire’s chest protector. The testing procedure is expensive in both time and money, so you won’t see them until a governing body like the NCAA starts requiring umpire equipment to achieve a NOCSEA standard. 

NOCSEA also does not permit manufacturers to advertise their numbers. You won’t see manufactures advertising their SI numbers for that reason. A person can become concussed at any SI level  The equipment being worn is only one of many factors contributing to a concussion. 

For products that are NOCSEA certified there are many ways to reach a 1200 SI number. Design, materials, and weight all play a role. Different companies go different routes to achieve their cert. the weight of an F3 helps get them there. The shape of the FM4K helps get it there. Pad design also plays a huge role. The difference between a new set of pads and an old set of pads will change the SI number. That’s why all umpires should replace their pads every season. 
 

And remember, 1200 correlates to skull fracture. A mask hitting that 1200 SI threshold isn’t super impressive. Anything that keeps the ball from physically impacting your skull should avoid that. You do want a number as close to Zero as possible, but is a 10 SI mask twice as good as a 20 SI? You can’t really make that claim. Each brain behind the mask is going to react differently to those impacts. 
 

I would love to see other companies open up about their own testing and R&D. I would venture a guess though that no company has people on Stan’s level of education and expertise.  He’s too humble to  admit how and where he got that expertise, but let’s just say we are VERY lucky to have Him focusing on umpire equipment.  

 

 

[wolfe_man]

On 8/29/2020 at 11:32 PM, JimKirk said:

”SO!...Is your bill touching your frame or close to touching? If it is, then whether you can or can’t take it off is not the issue. Even if close to touching, your pads will collapse inward when a force is applied to it.

Voila! You just built a direct bridge from your frame to your skull with your cap bill.” (Read again, too, please.)

 

This is why I only wear 4-stitch on the plate regardless of which mask I am wearing.  You have to give your mask pads room to compress and re-expand as the energy from the ball is dissipated.  I'd rather give more room than trade-off appearance over safety.

My English teacher must be proud of me, look at those big words in there!

[JimKirk]

17 hours ago, Matt Arcovio said:

I can speak to this. It is not to be construed as me speaking on behalf of AllStar or anything else. 

A couple years ago I spoke to somebody at NOCSEA regarding their certification procedure. They require a helmets and masks to demonstrate Severity Index (SI) numbers below 1200 to receive a certification. As Stan mentioned in the stream, that number correlates with a likelihood of skull fracture, not concussion. In my opinion, this is a very low bar. Companies will vary in their approach. Some will shoot for 1199 others will strive for 0. There are no levels of NOCSEA certification. A product is either certified or not. So Ty was technically correct, but every mask that gets a NOCSEA cert gets the “top” cert. 

No umpire specific equipment is required to meet NOCSEA certification. You will see the stamps on HSM’s, because NFHS requires it for players, but not on chest protectors because no catcher will wear an umpire’s chest protector. The testing procedure is expensive in both time and money, so you won’t see them until a governing body like the NCAA starts requiring umpire equipment to achieve a NOCSEA standard. 

NOCSEA also does not permit manufacturers to advertise their numbers. You won’t see manufactures advertising their SI numbers for that reason. A person can become concussed at any SI level  The equipment being worn is only one of many factors contributing to a concussion. 

For products that are NOCSEA certified there are many ways to reach a 1200 SI number. Design, materials, and weight all play a role. Different companies go different routes to achieve their cert. the weight of an F3 helps get them there. The shape of the FM4K helps get it there. Pad design also plays a huge role. The difference between a new set of pads and an old set of pads will change the SI number. That’s why all umpires should replace their pads every season. 
 

And remember, 1200 correlates to skull fracture. A mask hitting that 1200 SI threshold isn’t super impressive. Anything that keeps the ball from physically impacting your skull should avoid that. You do want a number as close to Zero as possible, but is a 10 SI mask twice as good as a 20 SI? You can’t really make that claim. Each brain behind the mask is going to react differently to those impacts. 
 

I would love to see other companies open up about their own testing and R&D. I would venture a guess though that no company has people on Stan’s level of education and expertise.  He’s too humble to  admit how and where he got that expertise, but let’s just say we are VERY lucky to have Him focusing on umpire equipment.  

 

 

Great insights and explanation -You can tell that you are in education.

I like that you discuss the low bar of NOCSAE. I want to echo what you said is that when you become a part of NOCSAE, you agree that you will not share your index numbers. I find that interesting and somewhat counter intuitive. Or just plain not helpful.

The only thing I would like to elaborate on, you cannot NOCSAE certify a traditional mask...only a helmet that covers all the way around.

To be honest, given that we would only carry helmets that are NOCSAE certified and given there are no ratings outside pass or fail, we do not give all that much credence to NOCSAE. Obviously we want to carry helmets that at the very least protect against skull fractures.

Add to it that a smaller percentage of umpires wear hockey style helmets compared to traditional masks, NOCSAE just does not have that much bearing on the protective industry as it relates to umpires.

So, I will take a shortcut and just tell you the cold hard and fast rules of protecting yourself from a head injury (or mitigation from a head injury). It’s as simple as 1-2-3-4 (there is a 5 but is harder).

1) Get as far away from the baseball as possible (aka in the slot or could also be back...see Joe Brinkman)

2) Wear as much protective layers including padding on your head that is as deflective and/or protective in as many areas as possible without being unreasonable. (HSM, skull cap or Uncap - could also be called an “Incap”, but being careful not to say getting an HSM whose layers are not really all that protective).

3) Don’t be stupid. This includes not replacing your padding often, building those bridges with your bill of your cap between your frame and head or trying to be tough by not getting off the field when you need to.

4) RICE just like you do with a bruise or muscle pull if you take a shot to mitigate potential damage. (except you can’t do “C”)

R - This means get off the field for one. Heat can exacerbate bleeding (and just being active can cause heat, so it doesn’t have to be hot temperature wise). Besides, another head shot in the same game could be catastrophic. Don’t drive home. Limit your screen time (using your phone or even watching TV is working your brain and it’s definitely not resting it). Don’t do algebra. Etc. You get the picture. REST.

I - Ice your brain (All Star’s cryo helmet is the best way to do this.). And when you ice something, do it multiple times. Icing is not a one-time thing.

5) This is the hard, advanced one that I learned from Dr. Marc Hilgers who looks after the MiLB umpires after they have received concussions. That is to strengthen your neck muscles.

(Oh wow. Everyone just stopped reading.)

Dr. Hilgers shared that concussions are typically impacted more by the whiplash that occurs when you take a shot, not the shot itself. The stronger your neck muscles are, the less whiplash you will receive. You’ll have to Google “how to strengthen neck muscles” to find how to do that.

You’ll not find anything at NOCSAE about any of this. Why? Because 4 out of 5 have nothing to do with the protective apparatus itself.

I made you look to confirm. 4 out 5. So, I’m with @Matt Arcovio on this. NOCSAE = Meh

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thanks, again @Matt Arcovio. I really appreciate the continued flow of information.

@JimKirk, when Scott Kennedy was still with you, he mentioned on one of his videos that he had a concussion self-assessment that he used to keep in his pocket on an index card when he was on the field. He mentioned he was going to make it available but, I can't seem to locate it. Did you guys ever post this on your website?

Does anyone else have a source or link on such a self-assessment?

~Dog

[JimKirk]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Does anyone else have a source or link on such a self-assessment?

In the article “Stubby Says: Umpire Concussion 5 Things to Do”, concussion symptoms are listed.

https://www.ump-attire.com/Umpire-Articles/STUBBY-SAYS-Umpire-Concussion-5-Things-to-Do

[Thatsnotyou]

On 8/31/2020 at 11:37 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Recently, Ty Unthank did a product review on the F3 mask V2. In that review he said that mask receives the top NOCSAE rating.

I would like to hear from All-Star, Wilson, Diamond and others' counter to that...I'm guessing price and weight but, it would still be good to hear from those guys. And also, how close are they on their NOCSAE ratings to the F3? 1%? 5%? 10%? Something else?

If F3 (and perhaps others) are making protection equipment which exceeds the mininum ratings that the marketplace is buying and these companies are profitable, is the NOCSAE minimum rating too low?

~Dog

In this day and age of data and testing and product features everywhere, it’s kind of odd to me that there isn’t real data alongside each mask. Like a collision rating in a car. If companies are testing things in a lab and running these numbers, why aren’t they shared? If they are good, it’s going to help sell the product. You can differentiate from the competition. It’s one thing to describe how it works. But we are all making educated guesses, or even leaps of faith, on what actually protects, how much, etc. 

[BT_Blue]

1 hour ago, Thatsnotyou said:

In this day and age of data and testing and product features everywhere, it’s kind of odd to me that there isn’t real data alongside each mask. Like a collision rating in a car. If companies are testing things in a lab and running these numbers, why aren’t they shared? If they are good, it’s going to help sell the product. You can differentiate from the competition. It’s one thing to describe how it works. But we are all making educated guesses, or even leaps of faith, on what actually protects, how much, etc. 

Simple answer, and my own guess why, it's because they don't have to. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would love to see a comparison between the Uncap and a hard shell like the Cobalt.

[Rock Bottom]

@JimKirk If you are between sizes on the Cobalt skully is it better to go up or down a size? Thanks!

[MadMax]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

In that review he said that mask receives the top NOCSAE rating.

There isn’t a quantitive rating to NOCSAE’s review process – it either passes the threshold number, and is certified, or it doesn’t. NOCSAE is a committee, or a board, comprised of the following: 

• American Academy of Pediatrics
• American College of Sports Medicine
• American Medical Society for Sports Medicine
• Athletic Equipment Managers Association
• National Athletic Equipment Reconditioners Association
• National Athletic Trainers' Association
• Sporting and Fitness Industry Association
• American Football Coaches Association
• American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine

and a non-voting representative from each the National Collegiate Athletic Association and the National Federation of State High School Associations.

There are several criticisms of this board, their standards, and the enforcement of those standards. Most of the strife hinges around liability, potential litigation, the costs of new development vs. re-use and reconditioning, and the ambiguous nature of concussions. Because of this, NOCSAE has had to compromise and arrive at a definable, binary standard – skull fracture, or no skull fracture – “accessorized” by external injuries, such as bruising, contusions, and lacerations. 

1 hour ago, Thatsnotyou said:

In this day and age of data and testing and product features everywhere, it’s kind of odd to me that there isn’t real data alongside each mask. Like a collision rating in a car. If companies are testing things in a lab and running these numbers, why aren’t they shared? If they are good, it’s going to help sell the product. You can differentiate from the competition. It’s one thing to describe how it works.

Sure, Stan gave us the threshold number that has to be cleared to receive certification, but no company is going to publish what the exact results were. Doing so opens up channels of liability and litigation. Additionally, the tests are conducted in exceptionally detailed, specific conditions of temperature and humidity, with specific amounts of force or torque applied at specific speeds. I know of these, since I designed and constructed these testing rooms, under contract, for 2 athletic equipment reconditioners.

Let’s stop fooling ourselves... these testing processes aren’t cheap. Complicating this, for the “big guys”, is that the manufacturing lines are overseas and disconnected from the North American offices. To make changes, alterations, and modifications to a piece of gear is like abruptly turning a freighter. As such, most of the “big guy” manufacturers are very glacial in their improvements and developments, if they undertake any at all (Wilson). The “smaller” manufacturers then either copy, recreate, or commission-&-rebrand existing gear pieces that have either had market success or certifications. Why do you think most of the HSMs look eerily similar?

On 8/31/2020 at 1:46 PM, Matt Arcovio said:

No umpire specific equipment is required to meet NOCSAE certification. You will see the stamps on HSM’s, because NFHS requires it for players, but not on chest protectors because no catcher will wear an umpire’s chest protector. The testing procedure is expensive in both time and money, so you won’t see them until a governing body like the NCAA starts requiring umpire equipment to achieve a NOCSAE standard. 

This has more to do with liability and litigation than anything else. An adult individual – in this case, an umpire – self-determines what gear they use. By contrast, amateur participants typically have their gear provided to them. And, if those items are unsafe, the institutions can be, or are at risk of being, found liable. If the NCAA begins instituting that umpiring gear must meet NOCSAE standards, it’s because NCAA Umpires, collectively, have made headway on how the NCAA considers contracted officials as employees (I don’t know the details).

[BT_Blue]

To your point @MadMax. Stan even told us that their equipment gets tests "worst case scenario". But we all know that head injuries don't always come worst case scenario. The hit you take could knock you on your ass. I could take the same hit and shrug it off U1 Joe West vs  Foul Ball style.

Would I love to see the numbers. Yes, I think that would be really cool. And might help in selecting which mask I would want to buy. Then again, we have reviews and opinions on mask from people we know and trust. And so far, that has served most of us quite well.

[Matt Arcovio]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

There isn’t a quantitive rating to NOCSAE’s review process – it either passes the threshold number, and is certified, or it doesn’t. NOCSAE is a committee, or a board, comprised of the following: 

• American Academy of Pediatrics
• American College of Sports Medicine
• American Medical Society for Sports Medicine
• Athletic Equipment Managers Association
• National Athletic Equipment Reconditioners Association
• National Athletic Trainers' Association
• Sporting and Fitness Industry Association
• American Football Coaches Association
• American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine

and a non-voting representative from each the National Collegiate Athletic Association and the National Federation of State High School Associations.

There are several criticisms of this board, their standards, and the enforcement of those standards. Most of the strife hinges around liability, potential litigation, the costs of new development vs. re-use and reconditioning, and the ambiguous nature of concussions. Because of this, NOCSAE has had to compromise and arrive at a definable, binary standard – skull fracture, or no skull fracture – “accessorized” by external injuries, such as bruising, contusions, and lacerations. 

Sure, Stan gave us the threshold number that has to be cleared to receive certification, but no company is going to publish what the exact results were. Doing so opens up channels of liability and litigation. Additionally, the tests are conducted in exceptionally detailed, specific conditions of temperature and humidity, with specific amounts of force or torque applied at specific speeds. I know of these, since I designed and constructed these testing rooms, under contract, for 2 athletic equipment reconditioners.

Let’s stop fooling ourselves... these testing processes aren’t cheap. Complicating this, for the “big guys”, is that the manufacturing lines are overseas and disconnected from the North American offices. To make changes, alterations, and modifications to a piece of gear is like abruptly turning a freighter. As such, most of the “big guy” manufacturers are very glacial in their improvements and developments, if they undertake any at all (Wilson). The “smaller” manufacturers then either copy, recreate, or commission-&-rebrand existing gear pieces that have either had market success or certifications. Why do you think most of the HSMs look eerily similar?

This has more to do with liability and litigation than anything else. An adult individual – in this case, an umpire – self-determines what gear they use. By contrast, amateur participants typically have their gear provided to them. And, if those items are unsafe, the institutions can be, or are at risk of being, found liable. If the NCAA begins instituting that umpiring gear must meet NOCSAE standards, it’s because NCAA Umpires, collectively, have made headway on how the NCAA considers contracted officials as employees (I don’t know the details).

Sounds to me like @MadMax just volunteered to set up a lab in his basement to run testing for everyone! 
 

Thanks max!!!  #sogenerous #blessed 

[umpstu]

All Hail MadMax!!!!

[BlueRanger]

I think an underrated take on the Cobalt rollout is how it's going to affect Force3. I cant imagine anyone would want to pay an extra $100 for a CP with plates they can't see and what seems like not any meaningful step up in technology. Not to mention the fact that the "soft" Cobalt looks pretty nicely poised to dominate the softball market in the near future.

[wolfe_man]

21 minutes ago, BlueRanger said:

I think an underrated take on the Cobalt rollout is how it's going to affect Force3. I cant imagine anyone would want to pay an extra $100 for a CP with plates they can't see and what seems like not any meaningful step up in technology. Not to mention the fact that the "soft" Cobalt looks pretty nicely poised to dominate the softball market in the near future.

I like F3, but I don't think it's THAT much better than any other CP that's out there right now.  I really don't think it's all that cooler either. I hate how hard it is too put on also, those clips are a pain in the neck to hold and clip with one hand when wearing it tight.  And did I mention it feels heavy? Finally, the V3 CP was too stiff and wide across the chest for my liking and I wear a 46-48 jacket.  Maybe it's just me being an odd fit, but the CP is not for me.  The only thing I truly liked about it is the low profile fitting which I wanted to reduce bulk from my Gold linebacker appearance.

I agree with you that they're going to have make some changes, lower price or something before becoming obsolete if all the good things that we're hearing about the AS Cobalt prove to be true.

It used to be when one auto manufacturer or airline came up with something good, then the others followed suit or improved performance too in order to keep pace and their share of the market.  It will be interesting to see how All Star's competition plays the next couple of months.  Will they just let it ride or try to come up with some new changes on their end?

All Star announced the challenge with a first-punch knockout... now who will rise up off the floor to challenge it? These are exciting times for sure!