RefMag "Test Yourself" from June

[noumpere]

I'm a little behind in my reading, so I apologize if this has been covered.

 

Paraphrasing:

B1 hits a deep and high fly hear the RF foul pole.  F9, standing in foul territory, reaches and touches the ball with his glove while the ball is over fair territory.  The ball deflects off his glove and travels over the fence on the foul side of the foul pole.

a. Home Run.

b. Foul Ball.

c.  Ground-rule Double

 

(and, no, my issue is not with whether "c" should be worded "book rule double.")

[Gfoley4]

automatic double, no difference between codes I believe

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

automatic double, no difference between codes I believe

That's what I have.  RefMag has it as a home run.

[wolfe_man]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's what I have.  RefMag has it as a home run.

I originally thought a home run too to be honest.  If a ball, in flight - without hitting the ground, in fair territory goes over the fence that's a home run.    

I then thought on it further and because the ball did not go over the fence in fair territory, but rather in foul territory (out of play), then that's why it's only a double.

Edit: Adding rule details

OBR Rule 5.05(9).

"Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a home run. However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only."

Source: https://www.umpirebible.com/OBR16/5.0.htm#505a5

NFHS Rule 8-3-3

"two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player’s or umpire’s equipment or uniform; or if a live thrown ball:

1. including a pitch, is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder; or
2. goes into a stand for spectators, dugout or player’s bench or over or through or lodges in a fence and it is not thrown by a pitcher from his plate as in 8-3-3d;
3. When two runners are between the same bases on an overthrow into dead ball territory, the lead runner receives two bases and the following runner is awarded one, since both runners cannot share the same awarded base.
4. Runners between second and third would score, because the award does not result in both runners occupying the same base."

Source: https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/nfhs/rule-8-section-3-baserunning-awards/

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

That's what I have.  RefMag has it as a home run.

They have been wrong before. 

[Mussgrass]

OK I'll bite. How is it not a foul ball if it was touched in foul territory?

[pnewton]

4 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

OK I'll bite. How is it not a foul ball if it was touched in foul territory?

OP says it was touched over fair territory, with they played standing in foul.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

They have been wrong before. 

So have I -- that's why I was checking.

this is from J/R (an old version!):

4– The right fielder manages to get under a towering fly ball at the fence and along
the right field foul line. Such fielder leaps, but deflects the fair ball over the fence
over foul DBT: ground rule double.

 

Interesting that (2019) OBR does NOT say "deflected over the fence in fair territory"" for a home run:

(A) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out
of the playing field in flight and he touched all
bases legally;

 

And, the section on two base awards is, perhaps, less than clear (it doesn't specifically cover a ball in flight):

(F) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected
into the stands outside the first or third base foul
lines;

[Jimurray]

38 minutes ago, noumpere said:

So have I -- that's why I was checking.

this is from J/R (an old version!):

4– The right fielder manages to get under a towering fly ball at the fence and along
the right field foul line. Such fielder leaps, but deflects the fair ball over the fence
over foul DBT: ground rule double.

 

Interesting that (2019) OBR does NOT say "deflected over the fence in fair territory"" for a home run:

(A) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out
of the playing field in flight and he touched all
bases legally;

 

And, the section on two base awards is, perhaps, less than clear (it doesn't specifically cover a ball in flight):

(F) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected
into the stands outside the first or third base foul
lines;

Unless it's changed since 2017 the MLBUM clarifies that "a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside the foul lines, the award is two bases from the time of pitch."

 

[wolfe_man]

I added above, but since we seldom go back and read what was already posted (I'm guilty of this at least), I will also re-post here.

 

OBR Rule 5.05(9).

"Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a home run. However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only."

Source: https://www.umpirebible.com/OBR16/5.0.htm#505a5

NFHS Rule 8-3-3

"two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player’s or umpire’s equipment or uniform; or if a live thrown ball:

1. including a pitch, is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder; or
2. goes into a stand for spectators, dugout or player’s bench or over or through or lodges in a fence and it is not thrown by a pitcher from his plate as in 8-3-3d;
3. When two runners are between the same bases on an overthrow into dead ball territory, the lead runner receives two bases and the following runner is awarded one, since both runners cannot share the same awarded base.
4. Runners between second and third would score, because the award does not result in both runners occupying the same base."

Source: https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/nfhs/rule-8-section-3-baserunning-awards/

 

[Senor Azul]

FED rules don’t really cover this situation so an interpretation is needed. Fortunately there is one available found in the annual interpretations released online--

2008 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 3: A fly ball hit deep to right field along the foul line hits the right fielder on the head. The ball then bounces off his head and, in flight, goes over the outfield fence, but does so on the foul side of the foul pole. Is this a home run? RULING: No, this is a ground-rule double. A home run is a fair ball that goes over a fence in flight in fair territory. (8-3-3a)

 

And the full citation for the OBR rule (which correctly answers the OP) referenced by Mr. wolfe_man is 5.05(a)(9).

[Mussgrass]

23 hours ago, pnewton said:

OP says it was touched over fair territory, with they played standing in foul.

Thanks! I missed the touched in fair. 

[noumpere]

RefMag issued a correction in the August edition.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thanks for posting the rules, @wolfe_man.

Does the height of the fence relative to where the ball was touched factor into the ruling? For instance, a ball FIRST TOUCHED below the level of the fence which then goes over the fence versus a ball FIRST TOUCHED above the level of the fence which then goes over the fence? Isn't #1 a GRD and #2 a HR?

I can't find language on this so, I was curious now...

~Dog

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

Does the height of the fence relative to where the ball was touched factor into the ruling?

 

No.

[Senor Azul]

The height of the fence does not matter because by rule and/or definition all that matters is whether the batted ball is considered to be still in flight. Actually, the NCAA does discuss the height of outfield fences in its current rule 1-2c (the fence should be at least six feet high and preferably eight feet high) but I think it is only as it relates to safety.

2019 NFHS rule 2 SECTION 6 BATTED BALL

ART. 1 . . . A batted or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

2019 NFHS rule 8 SECTION 3 BASERUNNING AWARDS

ART. 3 . . . Each runner is awarded:

a.    four bases (home) if a fair ball goes over a fence in flight or hits a foul pole above the fence, or is prevented from going over by being touched by a spectator, or is touched by an illegal glove/mitt or detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder;

2019 OBR Definitions of Terms

IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

5.06(b)(4) Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance:

To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and he touched all bases legally; or if a fair ball which, in the umpire’s judgment, would have gone out of the playing field in flight, is deflected by the act of a fielder in throwing his glove, cap, or any article of his apparel;