Umpire 'Out of Bounds'?

[Guest NJ Coach]

Didn't see myself but heard the same explanation from two people who did.

12u travel baseball.   The father of the pitcher berated the team's manager for not removing his son (the father's son) as pitcher because the kid was struggling.   Father thought his own kid had had enough.   This was a second game of a double-header and the team may not have had additional pitchers, which could be why the coach did not take the pitcher out.

Anyhow, it got so bad that the ump ejected the father from the field.  Father, disgusted not at the umpire but at his kid's manager begins to leave, taking his kid off the mound, out of the game, and intends to take his kid home with him.

Umpire then advises the kid NOT to go home with his father.  This is what I question.   Is this beyond the scope of an umpire's role ?  To me, parent bad behavior or not, this dispute between parent wanting to take his kid home and the team manager is not for an umpire to deal with.

Seems to me, a parent's decision trumps all others, even in case of potential harm to the child (when it would be for the police to deal with).

[ArchAngel72]

oof... I would not have stepped into that at all.

To me that ump stepped over a line when he got between Dad and kid.

 

Still a unreal crappy thing for Dad to pull with the coach and I don't see an issue for bouncing the parent but dang.

 

I would suggest to the coach maybe to possibly tell parent that his kid may not be allowed back into the league because of him if he keeps it up however.

Not up to me but could be up to the coach and the league Officials..

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

OP, you said you didn't see this. That you heard it from two others who did...

I suspect there is additional information that you were not provided.

AS THE SCENARIO IS DESCRIBED HERE, I am not sure I understand what the umpire's objection was with the player departing the field with his father.

That being said, I can certainly think of some OTHER scenarios where as the umpire I would intervene in the manner described but, I would hope that others would assist me.

~Dog

[LRZ]

Based on the OP, the umpire initially stepped over the line in tossing the father. If there is an argument between a parent and coach, I have no reason or basis to get involved. How do I know what motivated the father? Perhaps his son has been called on to pitch too much and Dad was genuinely concerned for his 12 y/o's well-being.

Then, having stepped over that line, the umpire stomped all over it in getting between the parent and child.

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, LRZ said:

Based on the OP, the umpire initially stepped over the line in tossing the father. If there is an argument between a parent and coach, I have no reason or basis to get involved. How do I know what motivated the father? Perhaps his son has been called on to pitch too much and Dad was genuinely concerned for his 12 y/o's well-being.

Then, having stepped over that line, the umpire stomped all over it in getting between the parent and child.

 

It all depends on language and etc of how the Dad was handling the conversation.  If the Dad is interrupting play of the game due to his carrying on yeah the Ump can get involved.  Who knows maybe the Ump felt some of it was directed at him based on the way the kid was pitching?

 

My feelings are the OP leaves a lot to be wondered about what really happened as its 2  I heard it from the grapevines.. 

 

[aaluck]

10 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Based on the OP, the umpire initially stepped over the line in tossing the father.

That's a good point but, IF this has gotten so disruptive that it is interfering with the game he may have to go. I can only imagine a 12 year old, upset on the mound, his dad and the coach in an argument and parents chiming in....what a mess.

As far as stepping in on the father/son relationship there is no question that was wrong. Now, that being said a lot of us here that do youth ball as well go to the same places over and over, year after year, same coaches, same kids, same parents. Maybe there is a "known" problem here and something needed to be said. But that is the ONLY situation where an ump (or someone else outside of the family) maybe should get involved.

[beerguy55]

Unless the father was on the field, or impacting the integrity of, or ability to continue, the game, there's a chance he overstepped in the ejection...having said that, I do believe an umpire has more authority than others believe in this regard.  If ANYONE is impacting the game the umpire can eject...or can suspend the game until someone else ejects...that person.  ("semantic" this all you want, regardless of the how, the reality is the umpire CAN eject fans/parents/passersby/beer vendors/Jehovah's Witnesses)

After that, it depends on what the umpire actually said...OP says the umpire "advised" the kid not to leave...what if that means the umpire said something like "if you leave your team forfeits because it has no more substitutes"?

[ArchAngel72]

3 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Maybe there is a "known" problem here and something needed to be said. But that is the ONLY situation where an ump (or someone else outside of the family) maybe should get involved.

Maybe Ump is seeing mom..  

 

But no seriously good point not knowing any kind of relationship there with the kids, parents, and etc.  Its hard to say what or why the ump would or should jump in there but in a normal circumstance Oh hell no..

 

[maven]

Sounds as if the guy might have needed some marriage counseling too. Maybe the umpire did that. Or gave him some medical advice. Or maybe the guy needed a new will and some estate planning. 

All for one low game fee! Impressive.

[Guest NJ Coach]

True there could be missing details, and we will never know. But I can't see any grounds for an umpire suggesting a kid not leave with an angry parent.

I bring this up because the hostile parent/coach matter struck a nerve.  And without knowing more, I disagree with the view above that the league could/should expel the kid going forward unless parent behavior changes.

My own kid was thoroughly berated and taken out of a single elimination 11u tournament game for hesitating at 3b on a passed ball with two outs, ultimately going for home and being tagged out by the catcher in what became a 5-3 loss.  The manager (paid, not a parent) was the 3b coach and later admitted to saying "No, Come Back"; "Go" then "Back".   Next, in the dugout between innings the mgr absolutely tore into my son, screaming at him and throwing full water bottles off the walls of the dugout (not at my son, but in extreme anger) my son was devastated and in tears.

I was furious at the manager for treating my son this way, and entered the dugout to get my son to leave the park and an argument ensued.  My son was probably in shock from this all and he couldn't bring himself to get up from the bench and leave with me...so he stayed.   The next day, the manager 'decided' to kick my kid off the travel team due to my own behavior entering HIS dugout.

I fought this, and my kid had the opportunity to be reinstated but was so hurt by the manager he opted to quit the team anyway.  And, why play for the same manager anyway ?

So, long story short, angry parents sometimes have very good reason to be.

My OP was about the ump interceding in the parent/kid/coach spat.

[Aging_Arbiter]

20 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

But I can't see any grounds for an umpire suggesting a kid not leave with an angry parent.

Remember the bad news Bears remake when Buttermaker was always drinking around/on the field??  Yeah, that's a good reason........

[aaluck]

58 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

My own kid was thoroughly berated and taken out of a single elimination 11u tournament game

You have summed up the entire problem in one sentence. Parents (maybe not you) couldn't care less about kids learning how to play baseball--winning is the only goal. And although winning should be a goal, in a game or life, not at age 10 or 11.

Who PAYS a coach to manage a bunch of 11 year olds? Seriously? This position is that of a nerdy dad, not Tommy Lasorda.

[LRZ]

The HC, screaming and throwing things, reducing an 11 y/o to tears? Get outta here! If I'm on the league's board, that coach will take a long vacation.

[Guest NJ Coach]

The league board didn’t have the stones to can the paid coach, whose brothers are paid coaches for the other travel team age groups and the lot of them also said run town baseball camps and also give private lessons. 
 

All that was done by the league was to allow my kid back onto the same team with the same coach after being kicked off because of me, which my kid didn’t want to do and I couldn’t blame him.

Yea, all the district teams in the town have hired coaches. 

Another problem with this arrangement is that the kids whose parents pay for lessons from these guys are almost always the kids who ‘make the teams’ 

got to play that game to make the team

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

The league board didn’t have the stones to can the paid coach, whose brothers are paid coaches for the other travel team age groups and the lot of them also said run town baseball camps and also give private lessons. 
 

All that was done by the league was to allow my kid back onto the same team with the same coach after being kicked off because of me, which my kid didn’t want to do and I couldn’t blame him.

Yea, all the district teams in the town have hired coaches. 

Another problem with this arrangement is that the kids whose parents pay for lessons from these guys are almost always the kids who ‘make the teams’ 

got to play that game to make the team

The team isn't worth it.

If those players were truly better, the coaches wouldn't need them to pay to play. I have a hunch that a lot of players in your area end up playing travel elsewhere, then either kicking your local team's ass or beating out the paying players when it comes to school ball.

[ArchAngel72]

Guest NJ Coach

 

Damn, Sorry you and your kid have been put into that situation.  I hope for your kids sake he does not take it to heart and he can work past the issue. Who knows maybe the idiot coach will come around and apologize heartfelt like to your kid and admit he made a mistake.  He should.   

I doubt that will ever happen but that coach should be reprimanded and he should apologize to his team. His actions were not anything that at the 11U age should be happening. I honestly do not know why the Ump did not toss him for that.  In LL I am pretty sure as an Ump seeing ANY verbal abuse to a kid we can step in and stop it. We are there for the kids protection as much as the other coachs and managers are and stopping abuse of any sort is a high priority 

[wolfe_man]

I had a coach like that when I was 11 and I chose not to come back the following year. The coach ended up having a heart attack during the year (not at a game or practice) and we performed much better for the assistant coach that took his place.

I started biting my fingernails that year and continue to do that to this day.  I ended up being diagnosed with an inflamed esophagus (basically an ulcer) and grew into allergies & asthma this same Summer.  I can't say it all came back to this coach, but in my heart I believed a lot of it did.  He took a lead-off or #2 batter and 2B/SS player and messed with me so much that I ended up batting 8th for a while (until the Asst took over and fixed me).  I was a kid that loved playing ball (even practice) and ended up hating going to anything if the coach was going to be there.

A game that you love becomes no longer fun, or worth it, when you're in that scenario. It took me a lot of years to get over that.  I was 17 before the stomach/esophagus issue was healed and still have those allergies & asthma.

You can learn a lot about life from baseball. I've moved on and forgiven the coach.  I even saw him a few months ago and we had a nice talk about the "old days".  He was a very successful coach and I choose to remember the good times we had playing together with my cousins and friends. 

Baseball is in my family's blood and because of my past experience I did not encourage my son to play when he became old enough.  He chose to play one year and I'm okay with that. I was determined that I would not pressure him to play. I wanted him to enjoy whatever decision he made.

I'm truly sorry for your son.  Defend him and protect him where you can.  More than anything else, support him and let him know you are there.  My dad had my back, even though his standing up for me cost me playing time and being moved down in the order, I appreciated him being there for me.

I hope things get better for you and your son.  There are things more important than winning being taught out there on the field.  I love to win as much or more than the next guy, but your son will remember some of this stuff long after baseball memories fade.  It is important to have fun out there!

[Guest NJ Coach]

Thx for that Wolfe_man...this was 4 years ago and still a sore subject with me.  Is probably a good thing that we moved after that season else my son probably would have stopped playing altogether.   I don't think he's as friendly now with the old travel teammates as he would have been if not for that abuse and shaming,  but I think he's ok where he is now....still playing (well, would be playing if no pandemic).

 

 

[wolfe_man]

3 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Thx for that Wolfe_man...this was 4 years ago and still a sore subject with me.  Is probably a good thing that we moved after that season else my son probably would have stopped playing altogether.   I don't think he's as friendly now with the old travel teammates as he would have been if not for that abuse and shaming,  but I think he's ok where he is now....still playing (well, would be playing if no pandemic).

 

 

I'm glad to hear that. No child should have to put up or deal with that kind of misbehavior. Quite frankly, it's unacceptable.  If a man cannot remember his place while coaching, then he should be man enough to step down and get out of the way.

[LRZ]

Guest NJ Coach, your son is just about the right age to start him ... umpiring! I'm being facetious--but only a little bit. It's a great way to be involved in a sport you love. He could continue to play and umpire younger kids' games in your local rec league. Nice pocket money for a 14-15 y/o.

And can you imagine the old coach's chagrin if he saw your son coming up to umpire one of his games? And if your son were to toss the coach.... Well, payback is a bitch, right?

[Guest NJ Coach]

Funny you should say that LRZ.  In our new town he did umpire some mid-level Rec games ...will try to convince him to do again when youth sports resume.