Lineup Change

[zoops]

After lineups are exchanged and as the catcher is about to throw the last warmup pitch down to second, the VT coach comes to me and says his pitcher is having a hard time getting loose and wants to change his lineup (not just sub for the pitcher, but do several adjustments).  I've had some differences of opinion on how to handle this - what would you do?  OBR rules.

[wolfe_man]

If he hasn't thrown a pitch and game hasn't started, then I have no problem with it.

Let's take another illustration with similar thinking, if the 1B rolled his ankle before the 1st pitch was thrown and the coach wants to put someone else at F3, would you allow it?  A pitcher who can't get warm is more susceptible to injury.

I might add that this would get to be a more serious issue as the age-level rises.  In LL, this may not be much of an issue, but as you progress the games mean more.

[zoops]

37 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Let's take another illustration with similar thinking, if the 1B rolled his ankle before the 1st pitch was thrown and the coach wants to put someone else at F3, would you allow it? 

Absolutely.  What this coach wanted to do was re-write his lineup with several changes to juggle the loss of the pitcher.  

[noumpere]

As I read 5.10(f), the pitcher named in the starting lineup has to face a batter, unless the umpire deems this to be an injury.

 

 

 

 

 

[maven]

The lineup is final once accepted at the plate meeting, right? So we're not switching the order of the starters, even if we allow a sub for F1 due to injury. And that starting F1 will be burned (if the league allows re-entry, he still can't pitch—unless, of course, the local rule allows that too).

If he wants to burn starters by subbing for them before the first pitch, that's fine. I'll make sure he understands that's what he's doing. If this league has re-entry, they'd be eligible to re-enter.

You don't get something for nothing: I'm not going to force a kid to pitch, but there are rules about this scenario.

[wolfe_man]

I'm not in disagreement with the rules, but if the pitcher can't get loose I'm thinking there's an issue (injury) that's preventing it.  NFHS rules are all about player safety.  I guess I'm listening for those words from the HC so he can switch pitchers without an issue since no pitch has been thrown. 

Now, if he just wants to switch them for any old reason, then I'm going to stand hard to the rules and explain he loses that sub.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, wolfe_man said:

I'm not in disagreement with the rules, but if the pitcher can't get loose I'm thinking there's an issue (injury) that's preventing it.  NFHS rules are all about player safety.  I guess I'm listening for those words from the HC so he can switch pitchers without an issue since no pitch has been thrown. 

Now, if he just wants to switch them for any old reason, then I'm going to stand hard to the rules and explain he loses that sub.

There is no way to switch pitchers without an issue, injury or not. That starter has been replaced, and the new pitcher has no re-entry.

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

There is no way to switch pitchers without an issue, injury or not. That starter has been replaced, and the new pitcher has no re-entry.

Sorry, I was not thinking clearly.  Of course, you are correct.  Regardless of the reason for the sub, the new pitcher would have no re-entry.

[aaluck]

I have no problem with him subbing the pitcher that can't get warm, we can call it an injury. However, as for changing his line-up, no. His line up is set once he hands me the card and I say "coach is this how you what 'em"......... "yes".

We are not going to allow him to come out with a new card and say this is my new line up. Now I am assuming that this is "big boy" baseball as I have never received a line up in youth ball, as most allow free substitution and I am not charged with the responsibility of keeping up with substitutions. And in "big boy" baseball you make sure your guy is warm and ready, injury different, but not warm, that's on him and I'm not going to reward him with a new line up.

If they ask us to keep the line up it is for a reason, they want it done right.

[zoops]

It was what normally would have been American Legion-level ball pre-Covid.  I did not allow the re-do on the lineup but did allow the sub.  Was the second game of the doubleheader where we probably had 35 minutes between games due to it being senior night for the home team so not sure why the VT waited until practically first pitch to realize their pitcher wasn't feeling well (arm-wise - I suppose I should clarify that in this day and age ).  

The manager seemed a little pissy that I didn't allow him to rework his lineup and said something to the effect of "alright but you should always call it that way then."  I wanted to say "I've umpired for 20 years and never seen this happen."  

I'll give an example of how the lineup looked:

Abel 5

Baker 7

Cain 3

Dexter DH

Engel 8

Frank 6

Gregg 2

Hank 4

Isaac 9

Jason 1

The DH was their D1-stud so I'm sure they wanted to leave him in, but couldn't they have moved Jason to, say, second base (8 spot in the lineup) and put Hank on the bench or is that not allowed since you are letting him off the mound without facing a better due to injury?  The DH would be burned obviously.  Again, OBR rules.

[aaluck]

16 hours ago, zoops said:

The DH was their D1-stud so I'm sure they wanted to leave him in, but couldn't they have moved Jason to, say, second base (8 spot in the lineup) and put Hank on the bench or is that not allowed since you are letting him off the mound without facing a better due to injury?  The DH would be burned obviously.  Again, OBR rules.

I really do not do anything under OBR so I know this doesn't help you, but under Fed the DH/P (player, not pitcher) he could have moved Jason to any position, after the first batter was put out or reached base (ie. just say "put him on"). Then, so long as the "reliever" was a starter on the field the line up would be just as he had it. In other words, Jason can play any position and still be in the P/DH role.

Bottom line here is you did exactly as you should have AND the coach learned a lesson for next year....no hanging out with your girlfriend between games, get warm.

[Replacematt]

17 hours ago, zoops said:

It was what normally would have been American Legion-level ball pre-Covid.  I did not allow the re-do on the lineup but did allow the sub.  Was the second game of the doubleheader where we probably had 35 minutes between games due to it being senior night for the home team so not sure why the VT waited until practically first pitch to realize their pitcher wasn't feeling well (arm-wise - I suppose I should clarify that in this day and age ).  

The manager seemed a little pissy that I didn't allow him to rework his lineup and said something to the effect of "alright but you should always call it that way then."  I wanted to say "I've umpired for 20 years and never seen this happen."  

I'll give an example of how the lineup looked:

Abel 5

Baker 7

Cain 3

Dexter DH

Engel 8

Frank 6

Gregg 2

Hank 4

Isaac 9

Jason 1

The DH was their D1-stud so I'm sure they wanted to leave him in, but couldn't they have moved Jason to, say, second base (8 spot in the lineup) and put Hank on the bench or is that not allowed since you are letting him off the mound without facing a better due to injury?  The DH would be burned obviously.  Again, OBR rules.

So, we have a mix of rules here. 
5.11(a)(2): The Designated Hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing Club changes pitchers.
5.11(a)(5): The Designated Hitter may be used on defense, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
5.11(a)(8) Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a position on defense, such move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for that Club for the remainder of the game.
 

5.11(a)(2) is important because it sets a limitation--no matter the decision, Dexter has to remain in the game (barring an incredulously coincidental injury.) However, if we simply move Jason to defense, that puts Dexter out of the game per 5.11(a)(8) and in violation of the previous sentence, so we can't do that. That leaves us with pulling Jason out entirely and substituting a new pitcher, one not currently in the lineup.

But what about 5.11(a)(5)? A reading of it could mean that Dexter goes to defense and then there's a decision on whether have Jason replace another defender in the batting lineup, or remove him entirely. However, MLBUM 47 implies that this rule only applies if there are new players entering the game, leaving us with my previous conclusion.

[zoops]

On 8/6/2020 at 11:42 AM, Matt said:

So, we have a mix of rules here. 
5.11(a)(2): The Designated Hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing Club changes pitchers.
5.11(a)(5): The Designated Hitter may be used on defense, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
5.11(a)(8) Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a position on defense, such move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for that Club for the remainder of the game.
 

5.11(a)(2) is important because it sets a limitation--no matter the decision, Dexter has to remain in the game (barring an incredulously coincidental injury.) However, if we simply move Jason to defense, that puts Dexter out of the game per 5.11(a)(8) and in violation of the previous sentence, so we can't do that. That leaves us with pulling Jason out entirely and substituting a new pitcher, one not currently in the lineup.

But what about 5.11(a)(5)? A reading of it could mean that Dexter goes to defense and then there's a decision on whether have Jason replace another defender in the batting lineup, or remove him entirely. However, MLBUM 47 implies that this rule only applies if there are new players entering the game, leaving us with my previous conclusion.

Good stuff thank you for sharing.