4-Man: R1

[humanbackstop19]

Just looking for feedback.  I'm watching a series of games which is using 4-man crews.  Almost every U2 is set up in C with only R1.  CCA manual gives choice of B or C (same as 3-man).  I don't work 4-man too much, but I prefer staying in deep B.  Puts me in a better window for the majority of SB attempts and make a read step if needed.  In C it seems you can get blocked off by middle infielder taking the throw and bag on errant throw, or get straight-lined.  Thoughts, feedback?  

[wolfe_man]

8 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Just looking for feedback.  I'm watching a series of games which is using 4-man crews.  Almost every U2 is set up in C with only R1.  CCA manual gives choice of B or C (same as 3-man).  I don't work 4-man too much, but I prefer staying in deep B.  Puts me in a better window for the majority of SB attempts and make a read step if needed.  In C it seems you can get blocked off by middle infielder taking the throw and bag on errant throw, or get straight-lined.  Thoughts, feedback?  

If I were given the choice of a runner stealing 2B, I'd prefer the view from C.   It's just like being at home and doing 3B-extended over 1B-extended albeit a somewhat different angle.  You should have a better look at the runner coming into the base and see the tag easier. 

In B, you can get blocked out by feet, glove, fielders knee, etc. and miss something, unless you get almost perpendicular to the bag, which is I think C would offer a better view.

[humanbackstop19]

44 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

If I were given the choice of a runner stealing 2B, I'd prefer the view from C.   It's just like being at home and doing 3B-extended over 1B-extended albeit a somewhat different angle.  You should have a better look at the runner coming into the base and see the tag easier. 

In B, you can get blocked out by feet, glove, fielders knee, etc. and miss something, unless you get almost perpendicular to the bag, which is I think C would offer a better view.

I agree with your thinking, but CCA manual made a change this year saying, "umpires are not allowed to start in the infield and then run to a position out in the dirt looking straight down the baseline toward second base during a steal play."  Do pro mechanics allow what you're saying, which in thought is nice?

[Gfoley4]

8 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I agree with your thinking, but CCA manual made a change this year saying, "umpires are not allowed to start in the infield and then run to a position out in the dirt looking straight down the baseline toward second base during a steal play."  Do pro mechanics allow what you're saying, which in thought is nice?

don't know what the official mechanics are but starting a few years ago some U2 in MLB will set up in a "very deep C", where they are on the edge of the infield dirt, to the left of 2nd base. then they'll come in straight towards the bag for the steal or double play chance

[wolfe_man]

16 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

  Do pro mechanics allow what you're saying, which in thought is nice?

I honestly do not know.  I was just offering my thoughts on it.  I only do HS, Babe Ruth, Legion and Travel ball, so I mostly am in NFHS rule set.

[catsbackr]

Another reason for C, almost all catcher's throws curve toward B, increasing the chance of interfering with the throw.

 

Also, in 3 or 4 man, I usually set up on the edge of the infield grass near the cutout in deep C, read the throw and step in.  Perfect view.

 

[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

Another reason for C, almost all catcher's throws curve toward B, increasing the chance of interfering with the throw.

 

Also, in 3 or 4 man, I usually set up on the edge of the infield grass near the cutout in deep C, read the throw and step in.  Perfect view.

 

Just a vote for Deep B with R1 in 3 and 4 man here. 

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Just a vote for Deep B with R1 in 3 and 4 man here. 

Me, too -- the most difficult calls are the swipe tags, and those are better seen from B.

 

But, this discussion is why it;'s listed as an option in the CCA.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Me, too -- the most difficult calls are the swipe tags, and those are better seen from B.

 

But, this discussion is why it;'s listed as an option in the CCA.

There was a good discussion in the NCAA video bulletin 3 this year. I'm biased and NCAA drew no conclusion but if you watched the B plays and the C plays I think B shows as better.

http://ncaabaseball.arbitersports.com/front/105039/Video/player/34904/38242

[MadMax]

On 7/31/2020 at 5:40 PM, catsbackr said:

Another reason for C, almost all catcher's throws curve toward B, increasing the chance of interfering with the throw.

*clears throat* Uhm, hello... 16-year catcher over here! “All” catchers’ throws do not curve towards B! If that was the case, then umpires across the country would be discussing the perils of being in B in 2-man, and finding ways out of it.

Deep C may be your preferred IP, but it’s not what we teach to U3s (in 3-man) or U2s (in 4/6-man). Deep B works best anytime there is a potential steal of 2B by R1.

The only reason why this is becoming an issue, and why the CCA manual has to address this specifically, is MLBU’s experimentation and use of U2 at C-beyond (outside the baseline). The MLB guys know what they’re doing, and why they’re setting up and moving where they do. CCA doesn’t want an umpire setting up in either C-deep or B-deep as an IP and then moving to C-beyond during a play.

[Replacematt]

I'm a huge proponent of deep B in a 3-umpire system and B-beyond in a 4-umpire system. That's what was suggested in the 2019 offseason.

[catsbackr]

Max,

 

Reread my post.  

 

I said ALMOST all, not all.  And, almost all catchers get inside the ball when throwing to 2B and throw a screwball to 2B.  That is fact.

[wolfe_man]

The catchers that worry me are the ones who see me moving and throw the ball at me instead of second base!

[Replacematt]

18 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

The catchers that worry me are the ones who see me moving and throw the ball at me instead of second base!

In their defense of their lack of defense, you shouldn't be moving until you see the ball's path.

[wolfe_man]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

In their defense of their lack of defense, you shouldn't be moving until you see the ball's path.

I begin moving and pick up the throw as I move. If I wait until they throw, there’s no way I’ll get there in time.

PS - I only do 2 man, so if you’re speaking 4-man as the OP was, then you may be right.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, wolfe_man said:

I begin moving and pick up the throw as I move. If I wait until they throw, there’s no way I’ll get there in time.

PS - I only do 2 man, so if you’re speaking 4-man as the OP was, then you may be right.

That’s the beauty of deep B in3-4 man with the most likely play as evidenced by the NCAA video. In 2 man you are in B and can back step and turn with the throw as it comes and be pretty close to the grass line to judge the most prevalent swipe tag. Some umpires do not have that ability in 2 man. With R1 and R3 in 2 man you have too be aware of the cut by F4 to throw home. I have had F4 catch the throw a foot from me as I tracked the throw and pivoted with it.  

[wolfe_man]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That’s the beauty of deep B in3-4 man with the most likely play as evidenced by the NCAA video. In 2 man you are in B and can back step and turn with the throw as it comes and be pretty close to the grass line to judge the most prevalent swipe tag. Some umpires do not have that ability in 2 man. With R1 and R3 in 2 man you have too be aware of the cut by F4 to throw home. I have had F4 catch the throw a foot from me as I tracked the throw and pivoted with it.  

That makes sense for 3-4 man, but if R1 in 2-man, then I need to be closer to the mound (shallower B) to see the tag on a pick-off attempt at 1B.  Let me be clear, I'm not arguing with you as I know there are far more experienced umpires on here than myself, I'm just explaining why I do what I do.

Thanks.

[humanbackstop19]

On 8/2/2020 at 11:03 PM, Jimurray said:

That’s the beauty of deep B in3-4 man with the most likely play as evidenced by the NCAA video. In 2 man you are in B and can back step and turn with the throw as it comes and be pretty close to the grass line to judge the most prevalent swipe tag. Some umpires do not have that ability in 2 man. With R1 and R3 in 2 man you have too be aware of the cut by F4 to throw home. I have had F4 catch the throw a foot from me as I tracked the throw and pivoted with it.  

Little off my OP, but this is one I can chime in on as you speak of R1/R3.  I've been advised at a clinic the proper 2-man mechanic taught at pro school is to stick tight to your B position, don't drop step, and follow the ball.  This prevents the tangle with a middle infielder, while holding the "angle over distance" philosophy of 2-man.  You have the same angle at second base by just turning as the ball passes, while you can make a read step in towards home plate if the throw goes behind, or back to R3 from the middle IF making a cut.  

[humanbackstop19]

This link answered my question.  Every MLB umpire worked deep B on steals at second with only R1.  

 

[wolfe_man]

20 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Little off my OP, but this is one I can chime in on as you speak of R1/R3.  I've been advised at a clinic the proper 2-man mechanic taught at pro school is to stick tight to your B position, don't drop step, and follow the ball.  This prevents the tangle with a middle infielder, while holding the "angle over distance" philosophy of 2-man.  You have the same angle at second base by just turning as the ball passes, while you can make a read step in towards home plate if the throw goes behind, or back to R3 from the middle IF making a cut.  

I need to go to a good camp. My HS trainer (works some college ball, not D1, but decent ball) told me we should start moving, pick up the throw over our shoulder and keep going towards the base.  I have to be honest, it never made sense to me to do this as my movement, although slight, does seem to be a distraction to some catchers (I do 14U travel, BR, Legion, etc. ball through HS).  I think I'll try the deep B idea and see if I can still see good enough for the tag play at first.  I'm sure I can find a happy medium.

Now, of course, they'll review me and tell me I'm not in the proper position for OHSAA. 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I need to go to a good camp. My HS trainer (works some college ball, not D1, but decent ball) told me we should start moving, pick up the throw over our shoulder and keep going towards the base.  I have to be honest, it never made sense to me to do this as my movement, although slight, does seem to be a distraction to some catchers (I do 14U travel, BR, Legion, etc. ball through HS).  I think I'll try the deep B idea and see if I can still see good enough for the tag play at first.  I'm sure I can find a happy medium.

Now, of course, they'll review me and tell me I'm not in the proper position for OHSAA.  Just like that stupid pivot that I hate, when I can see just as good as looking over my should for R1 to catch the base or obstruction, etc. and then be in a more comfortable position to move on to 2B.  But that's another topic and I can't rip off this thread (so just forget I said this).

B is the proper position with R1 in two man. You don't need to go to or toward deep B unless you are one of those guys that does not feel comfortable (I know quite a few) in the B spot. With R1 only you can drift back with the throw. With R1 and R3 as @humanbackstop19 says, you hold B and don't drop back because F4 may be charging the throw to cut it. You still pivot with the throw in either case.