catcher fails to catch a foul fly ball and it rolls fair after hitting his glove in foul territory

[mac266]

OBR with league modifications.  12U.

Runner on 1st, one out.

The batter hit a fly ball straight up the elevator shaft, maybe 10 feet down the 1st base line and slightly into foul territory.  It was about a foot into foul territory when the catcher tried to catch the ball.  The ball bounced off his glove -- AND WAS OVER *FOUL* TERRITORY WHEN CONTACT WAS MADE -- and then hit the ground and rolled into fair territory.

I'm not asking about the rule.  I know the rule:  I put up both hands and called, "FOUL!"  Any time a defensive player touches the ball in foul territory, the ball is dead and it is a foul ball since the catcher didn't make the catch.  

I was a little amazed that the batting team's coach didn't know the rule on this one.  He appealed, and I explained the rule to him, while some idiot woman in the crowd kept yelling at me, "IT ROLLED FAIR!!!"  Oh my goodness, she was annoying.  I ignored her, and she kept saying it repeatedly.  Between innings I spoke to the head coach about his fan.  I didn't bother reminding him that league modifications allow umpires to eject spectators (yes...Oh yes, they do!), but I'm sure he was aware of the thinly-veiled threat.  I assume he said something to her because she didn't say a word for the rest of the game.  

Funny, I came home today and quizzed my own 13 year-old, and he knew the rule.  

[umpstu]

Got the call right.  Instead of a thinly veiled threat, why not just ask if the coach could help you out on this one?

[mac266]

4 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Got the call right.  Instead of a thinly veiled threat, why not just ask if the coach could help you out on this one?

I did.  I just didn't remind him that I could eject her.

[noumpere]

*Sometimes* (use at your own risk) a comment like "AS YOU kNOW, the rule is that it's where the ball is first touched that matters."  And, say it loud enough for the fan to hear.  Forces the coach (and fan) to admit he doesn't know or that he saw something different.

[noumpere]

Another techniques:  Start with "Yes, you're right."  No one who is arguing expects to hear that, so it shuts them up and then you can explain in a calm mannter.

 

So, ion the "ball rolled fair" comment (not that I'd address the fan with this depending on the league / level / experience), Yes, you're right.  The ball did roll fair.  And, if the catcher had not touched the ball it would be a fair ball.  Since [do not say "but..."] the catcher did touch the ball, it's immediately foul and dead.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Another techniques:  Start with "Yes, you're right."  No one who is arguing expects to hear that, so it shuts them up and then you can explain in a calm mannter.

 

So, ion the "ball rolled fair" comment (not that I'd address the fan with this depending on the league / level / experience), Yes, you're right.  The ball did roll fair.  And, if the catcher had not touched the ball it would be a fair ball.  Since [do not say "but..."] the catcher did touch the ball, it's immediately foul and dead.

I am trying to get better about not addressing fans — its hard when you first start and many of them know you, but some figure it out.  Especially when you are ignoring your own wife at the backstop ...

My variation on @noumpere’s suggestion is simpler: I would finally give in to my worse instincts and look at the lady and say “Yes. It did.”    Walk away and don’t say another word.  Same effect as above: they will shut up because they don’t know what more to say OR realize they missed something.

[beerguy55]

On 7/25/2020 at 4:18 PM, The Man in Blue said:

I am trying to get better about not addressing fans — its hard when you first start and many of them know you, but some figure it out.  Especially when you are ignoring your own wife at the backstop ...

My variation on @noumpere’s suggestion is simpler: I would finally give in to my worse instincts and look at the lady and say “Yes. It did.”    Walk away and don’t say another word.  Same effect as above: they will shut up because they don’t know what more to say OR realize they missed something.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 2:54 PM, noumpere said:

Another techniques:  Start with "Yes, you're right."  No one who is arguing expects to hear that, so it shuts them up and then you can explain in a calm mannter.

 

So, ion the "ball rolled fair" comment (not that I'd address the fan with this depending on the league / level / experience), Yes, you're right.  The ball did roll fair.  And, if the catcher had not touched the ball it would be a fair ball.  Since [do not say "but..."] the catcher did touch the ball, it's immediately foul and dead.

I agree in principle..and in theory it should disarm the aggression of the other person, but I would also say be careful.

This is very close to the "yes and" approach to communication...it's taught in corporate environments to reduce conflict and at the same time encourage debate - to encourage disparate opinions (you don't want that here, do you?) - especially in meetings and brainstorming  - it's meant to encourage discussion and listening, and to reduce the risk of having someone in the room shut down due to being "wrong" about something, and not be comfortable to provide further input and be shut down again.   

In your scenario you want them to listen, but you don't want a response, or an expansion.  What you do NOT want here is a discussion, or to validate their opinion.  Depending on the personality type, you may have unwittingly invited a deeper discussion (though likely a jovial one).

Sometimes, saying yes "but" instead of yes "and" is necessary to truly shut things down.

[Rich Ives]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:48 PM, mac266 said:

the ball is dead and it is a foul ball since the catcher didn't make the catch.  

 

Just to clarify:  It's foul because it was touched foul. Catch or not doesn't matter.

It's dead because it was not caught. If caught it would be  live and in play.