Balk

[Guest Jack]

R1, F1 in set. F1 steps directly towards 1B, throws to F3 with non pivot foot, but his pivot doesn't disconnect from rubber after the throw. Balk or not and why please.

[Replacematt]

17 minutes ago, Guest Jack said:

R1, F1 in set. F1 steps directly towards 1B, throws to F3 with non pivot foot, but his pivot doesn't disconnect from rubber after the throw. Balk or not and why please.

No, because there's no rule against it. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

No, because there's no rule against it. 

There is actually a rule that says he can do that: 

5.07(a)( 2): “.........,.From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base.......”

But of course it’s best to ask what rule prevents it. 

[maven]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

There is actually a rule that says he can do that: 

5.07(a)( 2): “.........,.From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base.......”

But of course it’s best to ask what rule prevents it. 

As I read it, the question concerns not the step to 1B but leaving the pivot in contact. No rule requires that it come off the rubber, so it's legal to remain in contact (though it sounds awkward).

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, maven said:

As I read it, the question concerns not the step to 1B but leaving the pivot in contact. No rule requires that it come off the rubber, so it's legal to remain in contact (though it sounds awkward).

That's what I was reading.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, maven said:

As I read it, the question concerns not the step to 1B but leaving the pivot in contact. No rule requires that it come off the rubber, so it's legal to remain in contact (though it sounds awkward).

So the OP is asking if the pivot foot must disengage after the step and throw?

[noumpere]

The move described on the OP used to be the common way of making a throw to first.  Then, someone "invented" the jab step (and  the jump turn).  That was technically illegal by rule (the pitcher didn't deliver a pitch, throw to a base or disengage by stepping backwards off the rubber) but was allowed by interp.  Now, since "everyone" uses the jab step, some are asking whether the move in the OP is illegal -- it looks strange to see someone do it, so it must  be illegal, right?

[Guest Va..-umpire]

Of course Not, What 

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

The move described on the OP used to be the common way of making a throw to first.  Then, someone "invented" the jab step (and  the jump turn).  That was technically illegal by rule (the pitcher didn't deliver a pitch, throw to a base or disengage by stepping backwards off the rubber) but was allowed by interp.  Now, since "everyone" uses the jab step, some are asking whether the move in the OP is illegal -- it looks strange to see someone do it, so it must  be illegal, right?

A stupid made up question!

If there is no current rule about it, then it cannot be considered legal or illegal, play continues without any error.

[Tborze]

The 3-1 move requires he disengages before feinting to1st. Just mentioning in case this is what the OPer is thinking of. 

[Replacematt]

6 hours ago, Guest Va..-umpire said:

Of course Not, What 

A stupid made up question!

If there is no current rule about it, then it cannot be considered legal or illegal, play continues without any error.

Huh? 

[The Man in Blue]

But what about The Atlantic League!?

[aaluck]

On 7/18/2020 at 8:21 PM, maven said:

No rule requires that it come off the rubber, so it's legal to remain in contact (though it sounds awkward).

Well actually it is not.  It is a balk to be on the rubber without the ball, Now I realize we may be talking about a split second, five seconds or maybe he stays like that until the ball is thrown back.

“or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without ­having the ball.”

This question, like all balk questions really requires a video. But I can tell you that if he is on the rubber, and F3 has the ball, I'm calling a balk.

[noumpere]

35 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Well actually it is not.  It is a balk to be on the rubber without the ball, Now I realize we may be talking about a split second, five seconds or maybe he stays like that until the ball is thrown back.

“or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without ­having the ball.”

This question, like all balk questions really requires a video. But I can tell you that if he is on the rubber and F3 has the ball I'm calling a balk.

Unless they've changed the interp on this, it applies when the defense is attempting a hidden ball trick, or the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner by making the runner think the pitcher has taken the rubber.  My advice is to NOT be over-technical on this as when the pitcher doesn't clear the rubber (including astride or within 5') after throwing the ball to F3 and is waiting for a return throw (and F3 hasn't pretended to throw the ball back and hides the ball in his glove....)

[aaluck]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Unless they've changed the interp on this, it applies when the defense is attempting a hidden ball trick, or the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner by making the runner think the pitcher has taken the rubber.  My advice is to NOT be over-technical on this as when the pitcher doesn't clear the rubber (including astride or within 5') after throwing the ball to F3 and is waiting for a return throw (and F3 hasn't pretended to throw the ball back and hides the ball in his glove....)

No argument here.

BUT if the pitcher is standing there on the rubber waiting for the throw back I have a problem with that, because that indicates to everyone he already has the ball back.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, aaluck said:

No argument here.

BUT if the pitcher is standing there on the rubber waiting for the throw back I have a problem with that, because that indicates to everyone he already has the ball back.

If he;s facing the catcher or turned away from F3 pretending to fiddle with something in his glove, or ... -- possibly (and maybe probably); it also depends on what F3 might be doing.

 

But if he's facing F3 with his glove up (indicating "throw me the ball"0)(and that's how I interpret your "waiting for the throw back") -- then (almost) never would this be a balk.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

Well actually it is not.  It is a balk to be on the rubber without the ball, Now I realize we may be talking about a split second, five seconds or maybe he stays like that until the ball is thrown back.

“or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without ­having the ball.”

This question, like all balk questions really requires a video. But I can tell you that if he is on the rubber, and F3 has the ball, I'm calling a balk.

Too bad Carl is no longer with us, because he could start the fourth installment of "Ways to Ruin a Baseball Game."

[aaluck]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Too bad Carl is no longer with us, because he could start the fourth installment of "Ways to Ruin a Baseball Game."

I take it Carl wasn't big on enforcing the rules.

[Replacematt]

4 minutes ago, aaluck said:

I take it Carl wasn't big on enforcing the rules.

Are you aware of whom I was referring?

[Mad Mike]

@aaluck, you should ready the linked article below........

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2016/11/baseball-rules-guru-carl-childress.html

[aaluck]

6 minutes ago, Mad Mike said:

@aaluck, you should ready the linked article below........

Thank you. Good read. I had no idea who he was.

[aaluck]

On 7/23/2020 at 3:43 PM, Mad Mike said:

@aaluck, you should ready the linked article below........

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2016/11/baseball-rules-guru-carl-childress.html

Mike. Where are you in Idaho? I graduated from Mountain Home HS and my family stills lives there--in Boise now.

[Senor Azul]

2019 OBR rule

6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action

(a) Balks

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:

(9) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;

Here’s what the 2013 Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual advises about this rule—

“This rule should be enforced only if the pitcher stands on or over the rubber without the ball while attempting to commit the ‘hidden ball trick.’”

This advice is highlighted in a separate block of text labeled Harry’s Hints so I am pretty sure he meant it. And Mr. noumpere offered this advice earlier--

Unless they've changed the interp on this, it applies when the defense is attempting a hidden ball trick, or the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner by making the runner think the pitcher has taken the rubber.  My advice is to NOT be over-technical on this as when the pitcher doesn't clear the rubber (including astride or within 5') after throwing the ball to F3 and is waiting for a return throw (and F3 hasn't pretended to throw the ball back and hides the ball in his glove....)

Really good advice, Mr. noumpere.