The return of baseball in NJ

[beerguy55 654]

48 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

If "normal is gone", then accept your demise and begin planning for the end.

Normal is always ending...it's whether we can accept it and adapt is the choice we need to make.  

Some of us get dragged along kicking and screaming, but status quo changes, and we move on.  The rest get left in the wake.

48 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Exposure to the elements is what strengthens and maintains your immune system

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger...sure...and it also kills others.   But, if this is an acceptance of culling the herd, then so be it.  Pragmatically speaking, The Black Death was followed by the Renaissance...a period of great wealth, intellectual advancement, and artistic expansion.   

I expect the other side of this pandemic to show significant gains and improvements.

Otherwise...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it...and a bunch of other cliches.

 

EDIT: Having said that, most sane people don't expose themselves to ebola and smallpox to strengthen their immune system.

[Aging_Arbiter 1,460]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

EDIT: Having said that, most sane people don't expose themselves to ebola and smallpox to strengthen their immune system.

No SH*#?

 

Maybe if someone had eluded to that, instead of stating "the elements" (referring to outdoors), that might have been a valid point.

My point was directed (and should have clearly  pointed out the references for those who missed it) to sanitizing and disinfecting everything.

[beerguy55 654]

9 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

No SH*#?

 

Maybe if someone had eluded to that, instead of stating "the elements" (referring to outdoors), that might have been a valid point.

My point was directed (and should have clearly  pointed out the references for those who missed it) to sanitizing and disinfecting everything.

I watched that movie again last week for the first time in 20 years.

Anyway...you sanitize and disinfect things to not expose yourself to the viruses/bacteria living on said objects...be it influenza, coronovirus or ebola.

I agree in principle - better to let your kids get dirty than keep them in a bubble...usually...and maybe things will simply swing back and forth depending on what is circling the globe at that time...if we're willing to react when the scenarios present themselves.

[umpstu 1,136]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:02 AM, beerguy55 said:

If you want to wait until someone actually does a study how long this particular coronavirus stays on leather, or an actual baseball, you can go ahead.  To my knowledge no study has been done on fabric.  We know it can stick around on hard surfaces for a few days, and even a surface like cardboard for 24 hours, which probably tells us with reasonable certainty what it does on cowhide.  We know this virus, and most viruses like it, can be, and has been, transferred between objects (why do you think we're constantly washing our hands).  I don't need to wait for the official Harvard/CDC study on sports equipment to take the same precautions about handling a baseball as I would handling any object shared between multiple people.

How many people need to die in your country before you stop thinking I'm a crackpot?

Crackpot!  Just because.

[Richvee 2,300]

Here's someone's opinion with a little more expertise on the subject than me, and probably many of you. 

https://www.usabl.com/njbaseballcoalition

[aaluck 43]

13 hours ago, Richvee said:

Here's someone's opinion with a little more expertise on the subject than me, and probably many of you. 

Thanks for finding/posting that--it was very informative. Here in Alabama we are on an upswing in both cases and hospitalizations and at the same time my son has been working 4-5 games a day for perfect game in B'ham, for the past 14 days.  Ive been wondering about a lot of the things discussed in that video. 

[Kevin_K 805]

14 hours ago, Richvee said:

Here's someone's opinion with a little more expertise on the subject than me, and probably many of you. 

https://www.usabl.com/njbaseballcoalition

Nothing in that interview is news.

The biggest concern is individual behavior. Will coaches and non-playing participants wear masks as their own guidelines offer? Will spectators spread out? Will participants accurately conduct a daily symptom evaluation? Will they wash their hands? Will everyone keep their distance (think batters/catchers, middle infield slides/tags)?

The combination of the virus and the irresponsibility of others offers a dangerous matrix. I know that I do what I should to protect myself and what the current guidelines say I should do to help protect others (read wear a mask). I have little faith that all the other people I come in contact with will do the same. If other people were reliably utilizing best practices, the precipitous rise in infection numbers and rates would not be a concern in so many places where normal behaviors are still being practiced in this abnormal time.

YMMV.

[beerguy55 654]

16 hours ago, umpstu said:

Crackpot!  Just because.

You'd get along with my wife  

[aaluck 43]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

The biggest concern is individual behavior.

No question and that's the rub. 

[Richvee 2,300]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Nothing in that interview is news.

The biggest concern is individual behavior. Will coaches and non-playing participants wear masks as their own guidelines offer? Will spectators spread out? Will participants accurately conduct a daily symptom evaluation? Will they wash their hands? Will everyone keep their distance (think batters/catchers, middle infield slides/tags)?

The combination of the virus and the irresponsibility of others offers a dangerous matrix. I know that I do what I should to protect myself and what the current guidelines say I should do to help protect others (read wear a mask). I have little faith that all the other people I come in contact with will do the same. If other people were reliably utilizing best practices, the precipitous rise in infection numbers and rates would not be a concern in so many places where normal behaviors are still being practiced in this abnormal time.

YMMV.

Maybe it’s not news to the better informed.   There’s plenty people who think touching an object an infected person has touched is a death sentence. Many don’t realize even if a bat/ baseball was handled by an infected individual the “ dosage” left on the object is far from enough to infect a healthy individual. I think his analogy of an army fighting off a few intruders as opposed to hundreds is spot on. As far as others on a field acting responsibly?  I have to agree with you. But for me, if little Johnny doesn’t wash his hands, it Timmy and Joey decide to trade gloves, it has little to no effect on me. I can keep my distance from a coach who doesn’t  think he needs a mask. I’m willing to give it shot. If I don’t like what I’m seeing, I won’t do any more games. I 100% understand not wanting to be out there. We all have our own thoughts, opinions on this. No one is right or wrong. 

[LMSANS 568]

2 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Maybe it’s not news to the better informed.   There’s plenty people who think touching an object an infected person has touched is a death sentence. Many don’t realize even if a bat/ baseball was handled by an infected individual the “ dosage” left on the object is far from enough to infect a healthy individual. I think his analogy of an army fighting off a few intruders as opposed to hundreds is spot on. As far as others on a field acting responsibly?  I have to agree with you. But for me, if little Johnny doesn’t wash his hands, it Timmy and Joey decide to trade gloves, it has little to no effect on me. I can keep my distance from a coach who doesn’t  think he needs a mask. I’m willing to give it shot. If I don’t like what I’m seeing, I won’t do any more games. I 100% understand not wanting to be out there. We all have our own thoughts, opinions non this. No one is right or wrong. 

I'm taking the opposite view, I am leaning towards skipping the rest of the year.

I'm not too worried about getting sick, but I don't want to deal with coaches and fans that want me to do something about some Covid transgression.There are far ranging beliefs thanks to social media and I'm not going to judge that. I'm willing to let the dust settle after the election. Not saying the virus is political, but the interpretation of the science is.

[beerguy55 654]

1 minute ago, Richvee said:

Many don’t realize even if a bat/ baseball was handled by an infected individual the “ dosage” left on the object is far from enough to infect a healthy individual.

The reality is we don't always know...or, more accurately, it depends.  It depends on how much virus is shed onto the object in the first place...ie. the infectious dose, which scientists are still trying to determine what that number actually is.  And yes, if someone infected sneezes on a bat, it will certainly have a higher dose than if they just touched the bat (perhaps after sneezing on themselves).  That, however, doesn't' mean that touching something doesn't spread enough viral matter to infect others.  It may mean it's less likely.   And certain objects will be less likely than others.

We do know that this virus does, and has, spread through shared objects...and something as simple as using a common serving spoon, or sharing a salt shaker, can, and has, spread the virus to others - even to young, healthy individuals.

This uptick in infections isn't ALL caused by people breathing and sneezing on each other.  The bulk is likely spread by touching objects where the right amount of virus has been shed - whether it got there by a cough, or touch...be it TV remotes, counters or door handles.  In your own home, you're just as likely, if not more, to get the virus from someone else in the house not by direct contact, but through the fridge handle, counter, faucets, kitchen table, etc.   That's why we disinfect.  Assuming you don't spend all your time together in the pantry.

And be careful about the "healthy individual" thing...average age of hospitalizations is trending down across North America, and not because old people are dying but because of new cases...In Alberta the average age of those in the hospital and those in the ICU is 38...with a remarkable number under the age of 30.  Of course, that may simply because young people think they're immortal and are not taking any precautions, and older people are minimizing the time they're out in public.  That, however, doesn't change the fact that young, healthy people are showing up more prevalently in these latest stats....and not just positive tests, but hospital cases.

Though I'm quite confident I will survive COVID without much issue, I really don't want to find out...nor do I really want to deal with the symptoms...and, more importantly, I don't want to be the one who passes it onto a loved one who doesn't have the immune system to handle it.   So, yes, I don't mind treating shared objects as potentially deadly.

[Richvee 2,300]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

The reality is we don't always know...or, more accurately, it depends.  It depends on how much virus is shed onto the object in the first place...ie. the infectious dose, which scientists are still trying to determine what that number actually is.  And yes, if someone infected sneezes on a bat, it will certainly have a higher dose than if they just touched the bat (perhaps after sneezing on themselves).  That, however, doesn't' mean that touching something doesn't spread enough viral matter to infect others.  It may mean it's less likely.   And certain objects will be less likely than others.

We do know that this virus does, and has, spread through shared objects...and something as simple as using a common serving spoon, or sharing a salt shaker, can, and has, spread the virus to others - even to young, healthy individuals.

This uptick in infections isn't ALL caused by people breathing and sneezing on each other.  The bulk is likely spread by touching objects where the right amount of virus has been shed - whether it got there by a cough, or touch...be it TV remotes, counters or door handles.  In your own home, you're just as likely, if not more, to get the virus from someone else in the house not by direct contact, but through the fridge handle, counter, faucets, kitchen table, etc.   That's why we disinfect.  Assuming you don't spend all your time together in the pantry.

And be careful about the "healthy individual" thing...average age of hospitalizations is trending down across North America, and not because old people are dying but because of new cases...In Alberta the average age of those in the hospital and those in the ICU is 38...with a remarkable number under the age of 30.  Of course, that may simply because young people think they're immortal and are not taking any precautions, and older people are minimizing the time they're out in public.  That, however, doesn't change the fact that young, healthy people are showing up more prevalently in these latest stats....and not just positive tests, but hospital cases.

Though I'm quite confident I will survive COVID without much issue, I really don't want to find out...nor do I really want to deal with the symptoms...and, more importantly, I don't want to be the one who passes it onto a loved one who doesn't have the immune system to handle it.   So, yes, I don't mind treating shared objects as potentially deadly.

 

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

We all have our own thoughts, opinions on this. No one is right or wrong

 

[Richvee 2,300]

1 hour ago, LMSANS said:

I'm taking the opposite view, I am leaning towards skipping the rest of the year.

I'm not too worried about getting sick, but I don't want to deal with coaches and fans that want me to do something about some Covid transgression.There are far ranging beliefs thanks to social media and I'm not going to judge that. I'm willing to let the dust settle after the election. Not saying the virus is political, but the interpretation of the science is.

If I decide to do any games, the first time a parent or a coach wants me to play the covid police, I'm done. 

[beerguy55 654]

33 minutes ago, Richvee said:

We all have our own thoughts, opinions on this. No one is right or wrong

Unfortunately, that is not true.   Some of us are right and some of us are wrong.  We may not find out which for many months or years, but don't kid yourself.   I'm either right or wrong. or maybe right in some areas, wrong in others...I'm not both, and I'm certainly not neither.

EDIT: To clarify - there are facts buried in the data somewhere, some easier to dig up than others...any statements today pertaining to what eventual facts will come to light are either right or wrong.

[aaluck 43]

10 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Unfortunately, that is not true.

I would disagree with you to this extent. There are folks out there (I would suggest perhaps millions) that have NO choice, or maybe better stated a Hobson's choice. (And I'm not talking about spring breakers etc.)

My friend's daughter is a widowed single mom of two that owns a hair salon. He helped her for three months, paying her rent (home and business), insurance, car note, on and on. She had to open her shop or literally go flat broke. Imagine if he wouldn't have helped her...those folks have no choice so whatever they decide is neither right, nor wrong.

[LMSANS 568]

Let’s not get too far off track. I was trying to avoid the medical/political opinion discussion. I will shut down this topic very quickly.

[JonnyCat 217]

7 minutes ago, LMSANS said:

Let’s not get too far off track. I was trying to avoid the medical/political opinion discussion. I will shut down this topic very quickly.

Ok, no more political talk. We should discuss George Floyd instead. 

[LMSANS 568]

[Richvee 2,300]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Unfortunately, that is not true.   Some of us are right and some of us are wrong.  We may not find out which for many months or years, but don't kid yourself.   I'm either right or wrong. or maybe right in some areas, wrong in others...I'm not both, and I'm certainly not neither.

EDIT: To clarify - there are facts buried in the data somewhere, some easier to dig up than others...any statements today pertaining to what eventual facts will come to light are either right or wrong.

We're never going to know the true facts. 

[kylehutson 528]

16 hours ago, Richvee said:

We're never going to know the true facts. 

We will have a ton of statistics. Data scientists will have a quarter century of publishable papers.

[beerguy55 654]

On 6/30/2020 at 6:28 PM, Richvee said:

We're never going to know the true facts. 

Even if that were true it wouldn't change the basic premise.  Even if we were to never learn, know, or believe, that the Earth is 90 million miles from the Sun does not change the fact that it is.  Facts are facts.   A fact that was successfully measured 350 years ago without computers, or the benefit of space travel, using plain old fashioned scientific method.

We may never know if there is life elsewhere in the universe.   But if I believe there is and you  believe there isn't...and I can make a reasonable argument to demonstrate a high degree of probability there is (not necessarily that they have visited us), and you can make a reasonable argument to demonstrate the likelihood we're alone, the fact is one of us is right, and one of us is wrong.

There are people who are genuinely interpreting the data we have and developing reasonable accurate projections and/or conclusions

There are people who are genuinely misinterpreting the data (ie. unintentionally) and developing reasonable conclusions that will be wrong because their foundation is wrong.

In both cases, as more data comes in, those people will genuinely reassess and develop reasonable projections that may or may not be right.  Whether right or wrong, their motive is not agenda driven - they are simply following the evidence to see where it leads.   But make no mistake - they will be right or wrong...not both and not neither.   We will get the majority of the information we need,within the reasonable margin of error attributed to human fallibility.   But over time, the accuracy will increase and the margin of error will drop.

And then there are people who are ignoring facts that don't fit their narrative.

They do not all hold the same right to an "opinion" and they do not all warrant equal merit.   The flat earthers do not get to say their belief is just as valid as the round earth "belief"...one is fact and one is fantasy.  And you don't need to fly into space to know which is which - you simply need to watch a ship disappear over the horizon.  Another fact that was learned long before the Roman senators killed their emperor.

 

[JaxRolo 3,219]

On 6/24/2020 at 5:27 PM, beerguy55 said:

Wearing the covid mask over the umpire mask means you are now (potentially) infecting the umpire mask, and then your hands when you touch it (not to mention it doesn't really contain anything coming out of your nose or mouth)...every time you take your mask off and put it back on you would then need to sanitize your hands before touching the ball.    In short, you may as well not wear it at all.

 

Wearing c-mask under u-mask would reduce (not eliminate) that risk significantly.

When the tournaments don't make anyone but the umpire wear a mask it doesn't make sense.. Like I said a mask outside the umpire mask satisfies the requirement..

[JaxRolo 3,219]

I have done several tournaments and scrimmages and it's like it's back to normal.. No masks gloves. Social distancing...

Like nothing ever happened..

[kylehutson 528]

4 minutes ago, JaxRolo said:

I have done several tournaments and scrimmages and it's like it's back to normal.. No masks gloves. Social distancing...

Like nothing ever happened..

Same.

I use my Purell when I get back in my car, and put on my mask when I go to the store. But on a baseball field? Business as usual, AFAICT.