1st and 3rd starting position

[The Short Umpire]

Just curious, does anyone start on 3rd base side with R1 and R3? If so, why? Had a supervisor instruct to do this but it goes against the written mechanics of NFHS and MiLB. Just wondering because I didn’t get an explanation of why. 

[Biscuit]

That sounds like prioritizing the wrong plays. Being in C allows for... Better looks at the pickoff to third?

B is better for the double play ball (less than two outs), the steal, pick offs to first, and plays at first. Stick to B.

[The Short Umpire]

@Biscuit That's what I was thinking. Im gonna try and reach out to him and get his explanation but apparently its a pretty big deal. I was just curious if anyone else had heard of this or does this. 

[MadMax]

5 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

Had a supervisor instruct to do this...

Supervisor of ___________ ? What's his credentials, or background?

• In 2-man, with R1, BU is in B. We all know this, practice it, and preach it.
• In 2-man, with R3 Only, BU is in C, even with 2-outs. The expectation is we read the ball as it's put in play, and react accordingly. If there isn't a play immediately upon R3, and it isn't a fly ball to the big wedge of the outfield, we get across the midline (as in move, people) and either set up for a play at 1B, or watch the touch by BR at 1B and take him into 2B.
• In 2-man, with R1 and R3, BU is in B. Why? This is for the next most likely play out of these possibilities: 1) pickoff attempt at 1B, 2) steal attempt of 2B by R1, 3) ground ball with put-out attempt at 2B (and front-half of DP attempt if less than 2 outs), 4) ground ball with only put-out attempt at 1B, 5) fly ball to outfield with a catch & double tag attempt (albeit the other kind of double tag than R1&R2), 6)... I could keep writing more potential plays. There are several more standing between "Pickoff attempt at 3B" and "Back-pick at 3B". All the benefits of being in B outnumber / outweigh the two at being in C.

In 3-man, it's an entirely different structure. With a BU at 1B (U1), with R1 & R3, U3 will be in C. Pickoff attempts to 1B are not his anyway, he's in an "okay" position for ground balls with the put-out attempt at 2B, since he doesn't have to get across the midline to judge the play at 1B. The only "challenge" he's got is to properly see a steal attempt at 2B by R1.

4 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

... but apparently its a pretty big deal.

A big deal to who? The supervisor? He's mistaken.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

Just curious, does anyone start on 3rd base side with R1 and R3? If so, why? Had a supervisor instruct to do this but it goes against the written mechanics of NFHS and MiLB. Just wondering because I didn’t get an explanation of why. 

There are three different "guiding principles" one can use:

1. If a steal of second is possible, be in B; otherwise C.
2. If a steal of third is possible, be in C; otherwise B
3. If there's R2 or R3, be in C; otherwise B (be ahead of /as close to the lead runner as possible).

For your specific play, those give positions of B, B, and C respectively.

All have been used at times and in different areas to develop the rest of the mechanics; some change this with two outs (generally, moving closer to A under some configurations); some might change for small diamond (outside)  vs. big diamond (inside).  In my experience., Guideline 3 was more prevalent many years ago -- maybe that's where your supervisor was coming from.  At a lot of youth leagues, pick-off attempts at third are more common than they are at higher levels, and R3 is "more important" so the mechanic makes some sense.  Plus, at some youth leagues, the "expected" play is R1 stealing and the defense might try to play on R3, or R1 will just be safe and you'll move to C anyway..

That said, I think the move to Guideline 1 2 is generally a good one -- but I might occasionally use  1 2 or 3 for a specific game (or game situation).

(edited)

[Biscuit]

44 minutes ago, noumpere said:

There are three different "guiding principles" one can use:

1. If a steal of second is possible, be in B; otherwise C.
2. If a steal of third is possible, be in C; otherwise B
3. If there's R2 or R3, be in C; otherwise B (be ahead of /as close to the lead runner as possible).

For your specific play, those give positions of B, B, and C respectively.

All have been used at times and in different areas to develop the rest of the mechanics; some change this with two outs (generally, moving closer to A under some configurations); some might change for small diamond (outside)  vs. big diamond (inside).  In my experience., Guideline 3 was more prevalent many years ago -- maybe that's where your supervisor was coming from.  At a lot of youth leagues, pick-off attempts at third are more common than they are at higher levels, and R3 is "more important" so the mechanic makes some sense.  Plus, at some youth leagues, the "expected" play is R1 stealing and the defense might try to play on R3, or R1 will just be safe and you'll move to C anyway..

That said, I think the move to Guideline 1 is generally a good one -- but I might occasionally use 2 or 3 for a specific game (or game situation).

 

Honestly, I think it's best just to teach it as

No one one: A

R1 or R1, R3: B

Anything else: C

You can throw in somewhere about the steal at second, but I think it's less confusing to just give them the layout. Repeat it three or four times and it'll stick.

[noumpere]

36 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

Honestly, I think it's best just to teach it as

No one one: A

R1 or R1, R3: B

Anything else: C

You can throw in somewhere about the steal at second, but I think it's less confusing to just give them the layout. Repeat it three or four times and it'll stick.

I wouldn't go to C with bases loaded, for all the reasons you mentioned in your first reply.

 

And, I might not go to C with R2, R3 (especially with two outs).

[maven]

Was this a supervisor or an instructor who said this? I can see a supervisor sticking his nose in this, especially if he's 100 years old and somebody in the 60's once told him this was a good idea. No qualified instructor would advocate this mechanic.

Some principles that has not appeared in this thread so far (must be balanced against others, of course):

• If game assignments hang on it, do what your supervisor says.

This can be important if the supervisor is, say, a state interpreter.

[The Short Umpire]

@MadMax I’m not trying to out him or anything so I’ll just leave it at him being pretty high up in my state organization. And as far as him being mistaken, that’s what I thought. @Maven you are exactly right that games hang in the balance with this guy. So I guess just go with it. 
 

@noumpere thank you for pointing out the changes throughout the years. He may just be stuck on something he learned along time ago. 

[JonnyCat]

11 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

Just curious, does anyone start on 3rd base side with R1 and R3? If so, why? Had a supervisor instruct to do this but it goes against the written mechanics of NFHS and MiLB. Just wondering because I didn’t get an explanation of why. 

He could just be mistaken.

Or he is quoting Litte League mechanics for the small diamond and applying it to 90' mechanics. On the 60' diamond (2 man), LL has BU on 3rd base side (C) with R1 and R3.

IDK.

[Biscuit]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

I wouldn't go to C with bases loaded, for all the reasons you mentioned in your first reply.

 

And, I might not go to C with R2, R3 (especially with two outs).

You know, I agree when I think about. However, CCA has U1 in C with bases loaded. Anyone know why that is?

[The Short Umpire]

3 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

He could just be mistaken.

Or he is quoting Litte League mechanics for the small diamond and applying it to 90' mechanics. On the 60' diamond (2 man), LL has BU on 3rd base side (C) with R1 and R3.

IDK.

I was not aware of that difference for LL. He may just be mistaken.

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Biscuit said:

You know, I agree when I think about. However, CCA has U1 in C with bases loaded. Anyone know why that is?

Because "someone" got burned by being in B  with the bases loaded.  So, C it is.  Until "someone" gets burned there, and then it will be B.

 

(I assume this forum follows the blue-font convention.) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarcastic blue

[mac266]

My high school association teaches to be in position C with runners on 1st and 3rd.  However, everyone goes to B unless there are 2 outs to call the double play. 

[maven]

25 minutes ago, mac266 said:

My high school association teaches to be in position C with runners on 1st and 3rd.  However, everyone goes to B unless there are 2 outs to call the double play. 

That's the old FED mechanic. We don't use the FED mechanic manual any longer, but I thought they had fixed that.

R1, R3 should always be B.

R1, R2 should always be C.

Outs shouldn't matter for positioning in HS baseball. It's a pro mechanic for pro players and pro speed.

[catsbackr]

I'd discuss this with someone other than the gentleman involved.  

 

Someone, a trainer, association president, assignor, etc., and express your confusion.

[mac266]

23 hours ago, maven said:

That's the old FED mechanic. We don't use the FED mechanic manual any longer, but I thought they had fixed that.

R1, R3 should always be B.

R1, R2 should always be C.

Outs shouldn't matter for positioning in HS baseball. It's a pro mechanic for pro players and pro speed.

I believe you, and I trust your judgement.  However, that's what they're teaching.  Several of the old timers told me, "For the test, with runners on 1st and 3rd, the answer is position C.  But you'd better be in B during a game."

 

[BT_Blue]

On 11/5/2020 at 7:59 AM, mac266 said:

"For the test, with runners on 1st and 3rd, the answer is position C.  But you'd better be in B during a game."

Why do most of us hate the FED tests? Oh yeah... dumb stuff like this!