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Guest Coach Joe

How Many Bases?

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Guest Coach Joe

With a runner on the first, the batter hits a deep fly ball to center field. The runner, who believes that the ball is over the outfielder's head, runs to second. The center fielder makes the catch and notices that the runner is between second and third. She throws to first in an attempt to put out the runner for leaving too soon. The runner, who is between second and third at the time of the throw, hustles back only to see the ball thrown go into dead ball territory. What is the ruling on this play? Where does the base runner end up?

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6 minutes ago, Guest Coach Joe said:

With a runner on the first, the batter hits a deep fly ball to center field. The runner, who believes that the ball is over the outfielder's head, runs to second. The center fielder makes the catch and notices that the runner is between second and third. She throws to first in an attempt to put out the runner for leaving too soon. The runner, who is between second and third at the time of the throw, hustles back only to see the ball thrown go into dead ball territory. What is the ruling on this play? Where does the base runner end up?

Time of throw the runner would normally get home.

However, she would be at risk of being put out on appeal for leaving first early.   

Once she legally retouches first, her award is two bases from there - so she gets third base.   

Assuming softball, but I'm pretty sure this is the same in both softball and baseball.  (and yes, to those who get upset at that assumption, I know girls play baseball...it's just math, nothing personal)

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Using NFHS softball, 8-4-3(e) is your rule.  In this case she would be awarded two bases from her location at the time of the throw.

By your scenario, she would be awarded home.  She is still obligated to retouch second base, then first, then progress around the bases appropriately.  She would do this during the dead ball.

If she does not touch the bases in the appropriate order, the defense could appeal once the runner has been “given the opportunity to complete their baserunning responsibilities” and before the next pitch is thrown; rule 2-3(b.2).  If this is a successful appeal, the runner is out.
 

 

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Using NFHS, 8-4-3(e) is your rule.  In this case she would be awarded two bases from her location at the time of the throw.

By your scenario, she would be awarded home.  She is still obligated to retouch second base, then first, then progress around the bases appropriately.  She would do this during the dead ball.

If she does not touch the bases in the appropriate order, the defense could appeal once the runner has been “given the opportunity to complete their baserunning responsibilities” and before the next pitch is thrown; rule 2-3(b.2).  If this is a successful appeal, the runner is out.
 

 

I think that would be if the player was playing FED softball. Other codes would vary. Thinking this happened to me now in a game, OBR I award R1 HP then see what the player does. NCAA baseball same thing. FED baseball easy peasy.... award R1 3B. It always stuck in my mind that @grayhawk enlightened me to this FED baseball  difference a long time ago

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14 hours ago, Guest Coach Joe said:

With a runner on the first, the batter hits a deep fly ball to center field. The runner, who believes that the ball is over the outfielder's head, runs to second. The center fielder makes the catch and notices that the runner is between second and third. She throws to first in an attempt to put out the runner for leaving too soon. The runner, who is between second and third at the time of the throw, hustles back only to see the ball thrown go into dead ball territory. What is the ruling on this play? Where does the base runner end up?

Note that in FED baseball, if the runner is still between 2b and 3b when the ball goes into dead ball territory, the runner is NOT legally allowed to retouch first.  Even if the runner does so, she is still subject to being out on appeal at first.

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15 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I think that would be if the player was playing FED softball. Other codes would vary. Thinking this happened to me now in a game, OBR I award R1 HP then see what the player does. NCAA baseball same thing. FED baseball easy peasy.... award R1 3B. It always stuck in my mind that @grayhawk enlightened me to this FED baseball  difference a long time ago

Correct, I went back and edited that in to clarify.  The OP said "she" and @beerguy55 said softball, so I went down that path.  There is no 8-4-3(anything) in NFHS baseball.

In NFHS baseball it would be two bases from the time of the pitch (not the throw). 8-3-3(c)

 

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5 hours ago, noumpere said:

Note that in FED baseball, if the runner is still between 2b and 3b when the ball goes into dead ball territory, the runner is NOT legally allowed to retouch first.  Even if the runner does so, she is still subject to being out on appeal at first.

Yes, 8-2-5 in NFHS baseball.  There is no equivalent in softball.  Continuing the assumption that this is softball, she would need to return and touch bases in proper order.

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49 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Correct, I went back and edited that in to clarify.  The OP said "she" and @beerguy55 said softball, so I went down that path.  There is no 8-4-3(anything) in NFHS baseball.

In NFHS baseball it would be two bases from the time of the pitch (not the throw). 8-3-3(c)

 

Actually 8-3-5b in FED baseball defines the exception to time of throw when a throw goes out of play after a caught batted ball.

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22 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Actually 8-3-5b in FED baseball defines the exception to time of throw when a throw goes out of play after a caught batted ball.

Whoops ... yes!
 

Both lay out the two bases, but 8-3-3(c) doesn’t specify from where.  Kind of weird since (f) seems to be the only part of 8-3-3 that does specify, with the rest of it taken up in 8-3-5.  More clunky rulebook writing, or am I missing something?
 

Thank you @Jimurray!

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Using LL rules..

We did this one at class.  You tell the player they are awarded home.

If they are smart and retouch 1st you MUST correct what you said and tell them they are awarded 3rd.

If they do not go back to 1st and an appeal is made they are out at 1st with a proper appeal.

IF the appeal is botched they score and there is no appeal available after a botched one.

 

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1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Using LL rules..

We did this one at class.  You tell the player they are awarded home.

If they are smart and retouch 1st you MUST correct what you said and tell them they are awarded 3rd.

If they do not go back to 1st and an appeal is made they are out at 1st with a proper appeal.

IF the appeal is botched they score and there is no appeal available after a botched one.

 

It depends on what you mean by “botched” whether an appeal can still be allowed. 

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On 5/22/2020 at 12:28 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

Using LL rules..

We did this one at class.  You tell the player they are awarded home.

If they are smart and retouch 1st you MUST correct what you said and tell them they are awarded 3rd.

If they do not go back to 1st and an appeal is made they are out at 1st with a proper appeal.

IF the appeal is botched they score and there is no appeal available after a botched one.

 


I don’t know LL rules ... but that’s just goofy.

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


I don’t know LL rules ... but that’s just goofy.

LL is just following an OBR interp from the MLBUM

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

LL is just following an OBR interp from the MLBUM

 

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


I don’t know LL rules ... but that’s just goofy.

Just think of the rule...two bases from the last acquired. The last base legally acquired was first. It is second absent a successful appeal, so that is the basis for the award, as we do not presume an appeal, and that base is acquired until that point.

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

 

Just think of the rule...two bases from the last acquired. The last base legally acquired was first. It is second absent a successful appeal, so that is the basis for the award, as we do not presume an appeal, and that base is acquired until that point.

But codes other than OBR seem to vary in how they rule in this regard. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:59 PM, Matt said:

 

Just think of the rule...two bases from the last acquired. The last base legally acquired was first. It is second absent a successful appeal, so that is the basis for the award, as we do not presume an appeal, and that base is acquired until that point.


I may not have been clear ... I didn’t mean the base award, I meant not allowing the runner to properly retouch.

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


I may not have been clear ... I didn’t mean the base award, I meant not allowing the runner to properly retouch.

In OBR/LL the runner can properly retouch as long as he doesn't advance a base after the ball goes dead. FED baseball does not allow the runner to legally retouch if he was past his advance base when the ball went dead.

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In OBR/LL the runner can properly retouch as long as he doesn't advance a base after the ball goes dead. FED baseball does not allow the runner to legally retouch if he was on or past his advance base when the ball went dead.

FIFY.

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