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ArchAngel72

Question on "did he go" mechanic

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The did he go, in a one man is obvious. It is what you say it is, so don't take crapola in a one man on check swings since they are balls and strikes. With a partner, I believe 'LL is the one that says you do not have to ask, as the PU, if you choose not to. In all types of games I go too, on the close ones, the BU gets as much crapola for their decision as the PU.

The reason to go quickly on any 2 strike count where the batter could run, is because the defense will wait on a pb or wp till their catcher has the ball, or comes back with the ball, before they ask you to check, if they see the batter stays in the box, so they can get a cheap out from your partner. Go quickly so the batter has the chance to start running if you partner says he went, while the catcher is running to the screen to retrieve the ball. If you are situationaly aware, you can ask your partner quickly enough, that rarely will your partner have to use the voluntary method (I did not say never, just rarely).

And unfortunately, I have seen PU's getting crapola on their strike zones, defer all check swings all day to their partner (even the ones granny can call from the bleachers) to take the heat off themselves, rather than step up and take care of business.

 

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On 5/10/2020 at 6:21 PM, dumbdumb said:

I believe 'LL is the one that says you do not have to ask, as the PU, if you choose not to.

According to the manual, NFHS still grants the PU the right to decline an appeal request (_IMO_, this is one of the symptoms of the "god complex" for Fed PU's). However, the majority of leadership in High School Umpiring Associations / Groups, and in Directors of Tournaments that use NFHS rules strongly recommend (or, direct) that PU's should just grant any and all check swing appeal requests.

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12 hours ago, MadMax said:

According to the manual, NFHS still grants the PU the right to decline an appeal request (_IMO_, this is one of the symptoms of the "god complex" for Fed PU's). However, the majority of leadership in High School Umpiring Associations / Groups, and in Directors of Tournaments that use NFHS rules strongly recommend (or, direct) that PU's should just grant any and all check swing appeal requests.

 

I'm of the mindset that it is no different than a pulled foot or swipe tag ... most of the time it is just good form to verify if a coach asks.

That said, there are times when it is time to shut it down, e.g., that coach that asks on everything just because he thinks he can.

Let me ask this of you guys ... do you check with your partner for a coach hollering from the dugout, or do you "require" the catcher to be the one to ask you?  I have worked with guys who will not go for a coach.  Their rationale was the catcher must not have thought so either.

Personally, if a coach says "Hey Blue!" and asks me, I am apt to grant his request.  If he is yelling at his catcher to ask, I give the catcher a chance.  If the catcher doesn't ask, :shrug: play ball!

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On 5/6/2020 at 10:20 AM, Tborze said:

:WTF are you talking about?

I was simply saying I'd rather ask on my own knowing they're going to. Doesn't make you look unsure. You are unsure:beerbang          Sometimes it's a confirmation. 

Jesus Christ, Cmon Coach!

And there is a right or wrong. Either he did or he didn't. 50/50? Don't ask for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot!  

 

I was going to make a suggestion how you phrased that as well ... it just sounded like it had a "little attitude" behind it.  It may have just been how I read it though.

On stuff like that, there is no right or wrong.  There is "how I saw it" and "how you saw it".  How the umpire sees it wins out, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.  To take the stance "I am right/you are wrong" is asking for trouble.  We know angles and distance change the way things look.  We know we aren't perfect.  A little humility goes a long way.

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I'm of the mindset that it is no different than a pulled foot or swipe tag ... most of the time it is just good form to verify if a coach asks.

That said, there are times when it is time to shut it down, e.g., that coach that asks on everything just because he thinks he can.

Let me ask this of you guys ... do you check with your partner for a coach hollering from the dugout, or do you "require" the catcher to be the one to ask you?  I have worked with guys who will not go for a coach.  Their rationale was the catcher must not have thought so either.

Personally, if a coach says "Hey Blue!" and asks me, I am apt to grant his request.  If he is yelling at his catcher to ask, I give the catcher a chance.  If the catcher doesn't ask, :shrug: play ball!

I've recently seen a number of really experienced umpires (read: MLB, AAA, and/or high level college experience) say we should stop going to our partner on most timing based pulled foot plays. Replay/video has shown that the PU flips the call incorrectly more than they flip the call correctly. Sometimes you just can't see it and you should go to your partner, but if you judge that he held/didn't hold, the bag, stick with it unless you think there's a chance you missed something. 

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11 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

I've recently seen a number of really experienced umpires (read: MLB, AAA, and/or high level college experience) say we should stop going to our partner on most timing based pulled foot plays. Replay/video has shown that the PU flips the call incorrectly more than they flip the call correctly. Sometimes you just can't see it and you should go to your partner, but if you judge that he held/didn't hold, the bag, stick with it unless you think there's a chance you missed something. 

If I saw everything, there's no reason to go to my partner who had a worse view.

If you're a quick learner, you'll only make this mistake once (or, more accurately, only take his opinion over yours once.)

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

I've recently seen a number of really experienced umpires (read: MLB, AAA, and/or high level college experience) say we should stop going to our partner on most timing based pulled foot plays. Replay/video has shown that the PU flips the call incorrectly more than they flip the call correctly. Sometimes you just can't see it and you should go to your partner, but if you judge that he held/didn't hold, the bag, stick with it unless you think there's a chance you missed something. 

"Never" go if you're in A.

Rarely go if you're in B or C -- sometimes here the stretch is right toward you and you don't have time to move the distance required.  But, you can move more to see more than I see a lot of umpires move.

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7 minutes ago, noumpere said:

"Never" go if you're in A.

Learning points here: You have the ability to take a read step. Watch and react to the throw. Another point is illustrated by the story below:

I had a partner come to me from A once. It was a ground ball hit to the middle, he got a good initial position, but the throw was wide to the right-field side of the base and pulled F3. Because my partner didn't read that throw, the stretch came pretty much at him and he had nothing. He then came to me for help--and this is the learning point: Think of what your partner is doing before getting help; they may have absolutely no ability to help. In this case, I couldn't with a stretch away from me--the base blocked my view of his toe and I had no line of sight between him and the base. I told my partner as such, but did tell him that from what I could see, not definitive by any means, he probably pulled his foot, but I couldn't say for sure, and did I mention I couldn't absolutely give you an answer? That was good enough for him, having nothing, so he went with safe. So I guess there's another learning point--give all the information you have, whether you're asking or being asked. Had I not done that, I don't know what his call would have been (he never made an initial call, which is a debate for another time.)

The failure to execute on these two learning points had a consequence: we looked like SH*#. We got the call right, but it was not pretty, especially since (as it turned out) F3 pulled his foot pretty significantly, and the one person who was right there couldn't see that. 

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

I've recently seen a number of really experienced umpires (read: MLB, AAA, and/or high level college experience) say we should stop going to our partner on most timing based pulled foot plays. Replay/video...

At the MLB level, certainly, there's no reason to go to the partner, because a Video Review system is in place to cover exactly that.

At the MiLB level and high-end College level, umpires here are practiced and conditioned to make every effort – read, identify, move (ie. read step), and react – on a developing play like this so they don't miss a pulled foot. Sure, there might be the rare occurrence where even the best of umpires (in College and Minor-Pro), positioned inside on a 2 or 3 -man deployment, finds themselves in a play exploding on them. In that case, as @Matt and @noumpere have pointed out, those umpires are to use an appeal (go for help) as a last resort.

We can absolutely apply these lessons to our own umpiring, regardless the level.

Note: This is for potential pulled foot instances. This is not to be extrapolated as the case for swing appeals. Swing appeals? Be proactive. Just ask.

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15 hours ago, Matt said:

Learning points here: You have the ability to take a read step. Watch and react to the throw. Another point is illustrated by the story below:

Thank you for adding that -- it is what I meant.

 

You, at your level, are unlikely to be asked to go for help (from A, especially) much -- you know to take the read step, know how to take the read step, know how to deal with managers who do ask, and the managers know that you likely had a better view than your partner.

"First year LL umpire" is likely to be asked more  and should probably go to his/her partner more (for all the opposite reasons than above).  But, the umpire shouldn't go every time -- s/he needs to decide when the coach might have a point, and the umpire should work to implement the read step and timing and coach management so s/he doesn't need to go as much.

And, from B or C you can move a bit (but the amount the angle changes will be lower) to get a better view and by concentrating on the bag-foot you can *usually* see if it moves and make a pretty educated guess as to whether the foot was pulled.  Again, this comes with experience (and once you get to a high enough level , you are usually in A or can move aggressively to get a better angle sine there's another umpire(s) to handle subsequent plays on the bases.  For example, with three umpires, you can, sometimes, move across the 1b-2b baseline toward the outfield to get an "extended A" position look at the play and the potential pulled foot.

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