Jump to content
ArchAngel72

Question on "did he go" mechanic

Recommended Posts

Ok got a "discussion" going on another thread and I want to move the thought here.

 

My whole 3 seasons and 2 LL umpiring classes at Bridgeport have told me you do not "Appeal" a swing call unless you are asked to.

I'm looking for clarity on this, as I see you volunteering the appeal to field umpire you are telling the teams and coaches and fans you are not sure of your call and are making it much easier for them to "challenge" a call later if its close. You are showing them you are unsure.

My other point is thats why its called an appeal.   your call is your call you shouldn't be asking for help. I mean if you got knocked over by the catcher or something  well OK.. but if you called ball and did not think it was a swing you dont ask for help .

 

anyway looking for knowledge thanks

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Ok got a "discussion" going on another thread and I want to move the thought here.

 

My whole 3 seasons and 2 LL umpiring classes at Bridgeport have told me you do not "Appeal" a swing call unless you are asked to.

I'm looking for clarity on this, as I see you volunteering the appeal to field umpire you are telling the teams and coaches and fans you are not sure of your call and are making it much easier for them to "challenge" a call later if its close. You are showing them you are unsure.

My other point is thats why its called an appeal.   your call is your call you shouldn't be asking for help. I mean if you got knocked over by the catcher or something  well OK.. but if you called ball and did not think it was a swing you dont ask for help .

 

anyway looking for knowledge thanks

 

Did they cover why the "voluntary strike" mechanic exists and how it works?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd rather be unsure and ask for help on my own and get it right than allow them the opportunity to appeal and prove me wrong!

Personally, I pre-game this but only if P is in A (D) will I ask voluntarily.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Did they cover why the "voluntary strike" mechanic exists and how it works?

Does LL have a D3k rule?  I seem to recall they don't, but maybe it's been changed.

To the OP -- over time, you get a feel for when the teams (in that league, at that level of play) will ask and when they won't and when it makes sense for you to ask on your own and when it makes sense to wait.  I'm sure that's enormously helpful. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did he go?

season 2 GIF by Twin Peaks on Showtime

 

If you gotta ask, it means you thought he went. :nod:

 

Okay, joking aside.  I make the call I see.  If I got blocked out or didn't get a really good look, then I'd not be hesitant to ask my partner if he had a better view. 

To be honest, for the level of ball I call the coaches normally would see if I got blocked and ask me to get help if that happens anyhow, so moot point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are times I will ask to prevent being asked. Let's face it, there are half swings that are extremely close, but you can't be 100% so going to your partner is the prudent thing to do. It's especially important on some pitches:

- Uncaught third strike situations where the batter is able to advance to first (if it's a swing)
- Any 3 ball or 2 strike count

Frankly, it looks really good when you do it in the right situation with the right timing. It shows that you have good situational awareness where waiting for the catcher or the coach to ask for an appeal puts one team or the other in a bad position.

And don't worry about the whole "not sure of your call" perception. Just remember that check swings scenarios are usually a no win situation for the plate umpire. If you call it yourself, the offense will ride you for not using your partner who has the better angle. If you go to your partner and he says "no he didn't" then the defense will ride you for not grabbing it yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

There are times I will ask to prevent being asked. Let's face it, there are half swings that are extremely close, but you can't be 100% so going to your partner is the prudent thing to do. It's especially important on some pitches:

- Uncaught third strike situations where the batter is able to advance to first (if it's a swing)
- Any 3 ball or 2 strike count

Frankly, it looks really good when you do it in the right situation with the right timing. It shows that you have good situational awareness where waiting for the catcher or the coach to ask for an appeal puts one team or the other in a bad position.

And don't worry about the whole "not sure of your call" perception. Just remember that check swings scenarios are usually a no win situation for the plate umpire. If you call it yourself, the offense will ride you for not using your partner who has the better angle. If you go to your partner and he says "no he didn't" then the defense will ride you for not grabbing it yourself.

In other words, you'll be a good umpire if you do this.  I've found that most of our calls do this - make me loved by half and hated by half no matter what I do. 

But hey, I have at least a 50% approval rating! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tborze said:

I'd rather be unsure and ask for help on my own and get it right than allow them the opportunity to appeal and prove me wrong!

There's no right or wrong here...

You have a complete and total judgment call that, in the vast majority of the scenarios you're discussing, with no standardized measurement or indicator of what constitutes a swing, amounts to nothing more than a guess (for you, the catcher, the batter, the pitcher, the coaches, and everyone in the stands - even with slo mo replay)...and then you are shifting that 50/50 judgment/guess to someone else who may or may not have a better angle (really - in a two man crew, does the base ump ALWAYS have the better angle?)

And you're worried about what's "right", and whether you've actually been proven "wrong"??   The rules dictate the BU's call stands...it is no indication that he's right, nor that you were wrong.

For 99.99% of check swings you could have a robot randomly generate a strike/ball call and be perfectly fine.   

NOTE: swings, half swings and check swings where the PU is blocked are a different discussion.

39 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

It's especially important on some pitches:

- Uncaught third strike situations where the batter is able to advance to first (if it's a swing)
- Any 3 ball or 2 strike count

Frankly, it looks really good when you do it in the right situation with the right timing. It shows that you have good situational awareness where waiting for the catcher or the coach to ask for an appeal puts one team or the other in a bad position.

^^This^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2020 at 9:56 AM, Jimurray said:

Did they cover why the "voluntary strike" mechanic exists and how it works?

I am honestly confused by the term "voluntary strike"  and what you mean by it. Please explain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

There's no right or wrong here...

You have a complete and total judgment call that, in the vast majority of the scenarios you're discussing, with no standardized measurement or indicator of what constitutes a swing, amounts to nothing more than a guess (for you, the catcher, the batter, the pitcher, the coaches, and everyone in the stands - even with slo mo replay)...and then you are shifting that 50/50 judgment/guess to someone else who may or may not have a better angle (really - in a two man crew, does the base ump ALWAYS have the better angle?)

And you're worried about what's "right", and whether you've actually been proven "wrong"??   The rules dictate the BU's call stands...it is no indication that he's right, nor that you were wrong.

For 99.99% of check swings you could have a robot randomly generate a strike/ball call and be perfectly fine.   

NOTE: swings, half swings and check swings where the PU is blocked are a different discussion.

:WTF are you talking about?

I was simply saying I'd rather ask on my own knowing they're going to. Doesn't make you look unsure. You are unsure:beerbang          Sometimes it's a confirmation. 

Jesus Christ, Cmon Coach!

And there is a right or wrong. Either he did or he didn't. 50/50? Don't ask for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I am honestly confused by the term "voluntary strike"  and what you mean by it. Please explain

If the PU has a no swing on a pitch that is uncaught and the batter can run to 1B the BU will "voluntarily" give his yes (only if it is yes) signal if the PU does not  instantly ask without waiting for an appeal. That allows the batter to know his status and start to run right away. This is only when the BU has a swing and in codes where an appeal must be granted. I don't think LL has the wording that requires the PU to check if asked. But they should cover how to address an uncaught third strike with a check swing that leaves the batter and defense in limbo. The "voluntary strike" is an advanced mechanic. In LL it behooves the PU to know the sit and ask right away or decide that he won't ask in such a sit because LL doesn't make it mandatory. Another possibility is to have the BU always have a no swing in that sit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I am honestly confused by the term "voluntary strike"  and what you mean by it. Please explain

When your partner renders a call without being asked. D3K (unchecked swing) or caught 3rd strike, for Ex.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tborze said:

:WTF are you talking about?

I was simply saying I'd rather ask on my own knowing they're going to. Doesn't make you look unsure. You are unsure:beerbang          Sometimes it's a confirmation. 

Jesus Christ, Cmon Coach!

And there is a right or wrong. Either he did or he didn't. 50/50? Don't ask for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot!  

You're the one who said it...

"I'd rather be unsure and ask for help on my own and get it right"

"allow them the opportunity to appeal and prove me wrong"

 

Just because the BU rules it a strike doesn't mean your initial call was "wrong"...it just means he thinks he saw something you didn't...and it's something that, if presented to an audience of 1000 people with slow motion replay the audience response, even if the audience was 1000 seasoned umpires, would probably come out to very close to 50/50.

And no, there isn't right and wrong on a check swing...or most  check swings...considering there's no measurable consistent standard to define a swing, how can there be?  One man's strike is another man's ball.  And neither are right or wrong in most scenarios.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Tborze said:

When your partner renders a call without being asked. D3K (unchecked swing) or caught 3rd strike, for Ex.  

The BU should not "volunteer" on a caught 3rd strike.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The BU should not "volunteer" on a caught 3rd strike.

I read this three times until I realized that you were saying something different than what I was reading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Another possibility is to have the BU always have a no swing in that sit.

That's opening a different can of worms.

I think we've all worked with the "If I point with the left hand, don't call it a strike!" umpire. My comment back has always been "I have trouble with my directions - and definitely when you're facing me."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

If the PU has a no swing on a pitch that is uncaught and the batter can run to 1B the BU will "voluntarily" give his yes (only if it is yes) signal if the PU does not  instantly ask without waiting for an appeal. That allows the batter to know his status and start to run right away. This is only when the BU has a swing and in codes where an appeal must be granted. I don't think LL has the wording that requires the PU to check if asked. But they should cover how to address an uncaught third strike with a check swing that leaves the batter and defense in limbo. The "voluntary strike" is an advanced mechanic. In LL it behooves the PU to know the sit and ask right away or decide that he won't ask in such a sit because LL doesn't make it mandatory. Another possibility is to have the BU always have a no swing in that sit.

Thank You Jim, hmm I had never heard of that.  It is quite possible LL does not talk about it because 98% of the time we are alone out there LOL

 

So what is the mechanism and or signal that goes with that "Voluntary Strike"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So what is the mechanism and or signal that goes with that "Voluntary Strike"

The same as any "yes, he did" signal, but say "yes he went" and be big and loud.

 

Note that PU is *supposed* to ask first on these situations (without being asked by the defense) .  If so, BU gives whatever the "correct" answer is.  If PU doesn't ask AND if BU has a swing, then BU comes up with the call without being asked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Note that PU is *supposed* to ask first on these situations (without being asked by the defense) .  If so, BU gives whatever the "correct" answer is.  If PU doesn't ask AND if BU has a swing, then BU comes up with the call without being asked.

And remember - this is only on a U3K situation when the batter is able to advance (1B open with less than two outs, any time with two outs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok So I am clearly understanding it 

 

at 1b the count is X-2  1b is open I see a swing and the pitch is uncaught.  I call loudly "YES HE WENT"   without any appeal needed. and that is clearly a judgement call by me taking the call out of the PU's hands, in that, THAT was Strike 3 and the Batter-Runner should try to make 1st before he gets tagged or thrown out.

 

Now from a PU standpoint would I then toss the fist out as to also signify yes uncaught 3rd strike or would I as PU just let the BU's call rule the field?

Also  I assume 3rd BU would do the same if it was a lefty.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

ok So I am clearly understanding it 

 

at 1b the count is X-2  1b is open I see a swing and the pitch is uncaught.  I call loudly "YES HE WENT"   without any appeal needed. and that is clearly a judgement call by me taking the call out of the PU's hands, in that, THAT was Strike 3 and the Batter-Runner should try to make 1st before he gets tagged or thrown out.

 

Now from a PU standpoint would I then toss the fist out as to also signify yes uncaught 3rd strike or would I as PU just let the BU's call rule the field?

Also  I assume 3rd BU would do the same if it was a lefty.

 

 

This is an advanced mechanic and you and the PU should have briefed it and be comfortable with it and the PU should be given an instant to ask you directly before you volunteer. The point is that Bridgeport teaches not to appeal unless asked by the defense. This is a case where the PU should not wait for the defense to appeal. There is also the possibility that the PU would not ask and doesn't have to by LL rules. You both should be on the same page. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here’s the rule answering Mr. noumpere’s question about whether LL has a dropped third strike rule ("Does LL have a D3k rule?  I seem to recall they don't, but maybe it's been changed.") And following is the LL rule about checked swing appeals.

2019 LL RIM rule 6.09 - The batter becomes a runner when-

(b) Little League Majors (BASEBALL AND SOFTBALL)/Intermediate (50-70) Division (BASEBALL) Junior/Senior League (BASEBALL/SOFTBALL): the third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied or (2) first base is occupied with two out;

(NOTE: A batter forfeits his/her opportunity to advance to first base when he/she enters the dugout or other dead ball area.)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

Sometimes, the batter will take a few steps toward the dugout or his/her defensive position after the third strike without realizing that he/she can advance to first base. This would be perfectly legal. The batter is not “out of the baseline” or has not “abandoned his/her base” or any other explanation that the opposing manager will give you.

 

2019 LL RIM rule 9.02 –

(a)  Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

  Appealing a check swing that has been ruled a ball (asking for the plate umpire to get help from his or her partner) is permitted, and absent an overriding reason should be honored. Appealing a check swing that has been ruled a strike is not permitted.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The voluntary strike is discussed in every OBR interpretation manual I have. It can be found in the 2014 PBUC manual at paragraph 9.9 on page 104…in the 2015 MLB Umpire Manual in paragraph 62 on page 79…in the 2013 Wendelstedt manual on page 17…in the 2010 Jaksa/Roder manual on page 80…the 2018 MiLBUM on page 128…and it can be found in the 2016 BRD on page 72. Here’s what the Wendelstedt manual says about the voluntary strike--

In situations where the batter attempts to check his swing on a pitch that gets away from the catcher, and where the batter could advance on an uncaught third strike, i.e., first base unoccupied or with two outs; it is permissible for the designated base umpire to voluntarily and immediately offer a strike decision when the batter has offered at the pitch, but was initially called a ball by the plate umpire. In order to avoid confusion, and to allow the batter-runner the opportunity to advance, the base umpire will make this decision without waiting for the plate umpire or defensive team to make the request.

And here’s what the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual says (section 8.7, page 128)—

In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire’s call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Here’s the rule answering Mr. noumpere’s question about whether LL has a dropped third strike rule ("Does LL have a D3k rule?  I seem to recall they don't, but maybe it's been changed.")

Thank you for the update.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some basics that we exercise at the WR Academy.  The batter checks his swing.  And.....

Plate Ump should rule "Yes! He went!"  [Can't appeal!] or "No!  He didn't go!"  DM can tell his catcher to ask PU to get help.  It's up to the PU to decide to go to his partner or not--but it's a courtesy that you usually do respond to.

At this point, there is no doubt what your plate ruling was.  If you want help (on your own), go for it!  This is vital with 3 ball and or two strike count.  It could mean something important to the possible play!  (But technically, you do not have to honor the request to check.)

Point is, always rule what you judge on a check swing.  He went or he didn't.  This is a little preventative umpiring that will actually enhance the umpire team's credibility.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...