Illegal Pitch?

[ousafe]

Never seen anything like this.  I'm guessing it's legal.  Is it?

 

[maven]

Why guess? What rule prohibits it?

No rule dictates how F1 must get the ball into his throwing hand. So, if it's not prohibited, it's legal (generally, within the spirit of the rules).

Seems like it might work at most once per game. He's not getting full extension before the pitch, so it can't have much on it.

[johnnyg08]

I think this play is more situational management. 

When the coach comes out and says: "He can't do that" 

In cases like this, I believe that a good umpire will respond with more than a "He's good." or "Yes he can" 

How do you respond and maintain your credibilty?

 

[noumpere]

It's legal because he's doing what he is supposed to be doing.

 

Oh -- wrong thread.

[noumpere]

What rule is he breaking, skip?

[maven]

There's another thread on this clip.

[maven]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's legal because he's doing what he is supposed to be doing.

 

Oh -- wrong thread.

 

 

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, maven said:

There's another thread on this clip.

Got link? 

[maven]

 

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

 

Merged for pleasure. Thanks @Maven 

[Aging_Arbiter]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

How do you respond and maintain your credibilty?

 

3 hours ago, maven said:

What rule prohibits it?

No rule dictates how F1 must get the ball into his throwing hand. So, if it's not prohibited, it's legal

'nuff said

[Senor Azul]

Gil of Close Call Sports has already posted an analysis of this pitch on his site and also posted this video on YouTube.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

I’ve got it illegal in NFHS all day long ... The CCS video sums up my thoughts (3 x coming together and apart, distraction for unsportsmanlike conduct).  The only thing I disagree with is the interpretation that a “natural” delivery is one that is repeated every time.
 

 

6 hours ago, maven said:

Why guess? What rule prohibits it?

No rule dictates how F1 must get the ball into his throwing hand. So, if it's not prohibited, it's legal (generally, within the spirit of the rules).

Seems like it might work at most once per game. He's not getting full extension before the pitch, so it can't have much on it.

 

There is no rule against shooting paintball guns at the other team or peeing on them when you are near them, either.  Doesn’t make it legal.

Correct that there is no rule on how the ball gets from the glove to the hand, but there is a rule on how many times that can happen.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

I’ve got it illegal in NFHS all day long ... The CCS video sums up my thoughts (3 x coming together and apart, distraction for unsportsmanlike conduct).  The only thing I disagree with is the interpretation that a “natural” delivery is one that is repeated every time.
 

 

 

There is no rule against shooting paintball guns at the other team or peeing on them when you are near them, either.  Doesn’t make it legal.

Correct that there is no rule on how the ball gets from the glove to the hand, but there is a rule on how many times that can happen.

There is rule for how many times that can happen prior to starting delivery. Numerous pitchers, usually in the set, pop the glove while delivering. We don’t call that. 

[johnnyg08]

4 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Got link? 

As a former player, I see this working maybe once. Maybe. 

I don't believe there are any issues with legality. 

In the end he gets to this point and it's like any other pitch from the windup. It's not that big of a deal from a hitter's standpoint. He still ends up in the "traditional" or normal delivery position.

Lastly, I feel bad for his DH. 

 

[udbrky]

Is it much different from the player who takes his hands apart mid-delivery? You can say the batter can't see the ball in his hand. But what if the pitcher keeps his hands together until the last possible second, can't pick it up there.

 

I don't see how he can really get a good grip, and I don't think this is beneficial for the F1 long term.

[johnnyg08]

24 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Is it much different from the player who takes his hands apart mid-delivery? You can say the batter can't see the ball in his hand. But what if the pitcher keeps his hands together until the last possible second, can't pick it up there.

 

I don't see how he can really get a good grip, and I don't think this is beneficial for the F1 long term.

Agree. It's a gimmick. I can't find rule support that makes it illegal, therefore it's legal for me. 

[Replacematt]

13 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Agree. It's a gimmick. I can't find rule support that makes it illegal, therefore it's legal for me. 

That's what I've got.

[POLOGREEN2]

I nelieve that the Pitcher clearly stops his motion.......NFHS Runners on base BALK ... No runners on base Illegal pitch. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration.
6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher’s non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher’s plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

[johnnyg08]

5 minutes ago, POLOGREEN2 said:

I nelieve that the Pitcher clearly stops his motion.

We must be watching different videos. If a stop is what we're looking for, that video doesn't have it. 

 

 

[POLOGREEN2]

Maven Let me first Thank you for your input on ALL these posts...Thanks. You did say in a post about a fielder bobbling a fly ball and a runner tagging up you stated (And I agree)  

"There's a reason you never see this. Every time you think of a possible loophole, ask yourself: have I ever seen this? If not, assume it's illegal."

 I would also assume that this would then be illegal. I've NEVER seen this!!! 

 

[POLOGREEN2]

Just now, johnnyg08 said:

We must be watching different videos. If a stop is what we're looking for, that video doesn't have it. 

 

 

In looking again ...maybe a pause but I may be incorrect!!!

 

[maven]

4 minutes ago, POLOGREEN2 said:

 I would also assume that this would then be illegal. I've NEVER seen this!!! 

Fair enough: many folks will have that reaction to this video. "That can't be legal!"

But we can't stop there. We have to then ask what rules apply, and do any of them prohibit the action we see? The answer here is no. 

In the bobble/tag up play, that's how we proceeded: assumed it was illegal, found the relevant rule, learned that yeah, it's illegal.

No shortcuts to quality officiating.

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, POLOGREEN2 said:

I nelieve that the Pitcher clearly stops his motion.......NFHS Runners on base BALK ... No runners on base Illegal pitch. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration.
6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher’s non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher’s plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

This was an NCAA pitcher: "8-Sect. 1 Note 2: A pitcher may pause during his delivery from the windup position without penalty." OBR also allows a pause.

NFHS has a specific case play that prohibits a pause during the windup. You might perceive that with this pitcher. I wouldn't.

[johnnyg08]

Not everything that looks weird is illegal. The reason we tend to not see most gimmicks is because they are gimmicks and they don't work. 

Things like this require us to know the specific requirements of the windup and what the pitcher is permitted to do...it's not necessarily how we feel or what we think which is where a lot of umpires get into trouble with the MSU rule book.