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Guest Josh

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Guest Josh

Bases loaded.  Walk.  3r gets to plate and misses.  Doesn't enter dugout gets to edge.  Pitcher throws to plate for appeal.  Out or safe? He returned and touched after appeal before entering dugout.  

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R3 has until he enters the dugout ("leaves the field of play") to return and correct his error (8-2-6d).

After a walk, the ball is live. If the defense makes a live ball appeal, then R3 should be ruled out.

If the question is whether we can rule on the appeal before R3 enters the dugout, the answer is yes. A live ball appeal can be made immediately once R3 is not trying to reach the plate.

For dead ball appeals, we must wait until runners have an "opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities." But I would grant time (and hear a dead ball appeal) once R3 leaves the dirt circle around HP.

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Guest Josh

I argued the runner is entitled to the base, but in passing it up, the runner had achieved that base.  But since he missed, we live. All appealed and tagged him coming back.  

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Entitled to it?  Yes.  But also still obligated to complete all responsibilities, i.e., touching it.

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11 hours ago, Guest Josh said:

I argued the runner is entitled to the base, but in passing it up, the runner had achieved that base.  But since he missed, we live. All appealed and tagged him coming back.  

  1. The runner is entitled to advance from 3B to HP by the award to the batter, which forces him to advance.
  2. When any runner passes a base without touching it, he acquires that base pending legal appeal. In this case, with no appeal, the run would count.
  3. I don't understand your last 2 sentences. For a live ball appeal, it's sufficient to tag the missed base—no requirement to tag the runner once he's that far from the missed base.

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11 hours ago, Guest Josh said:

I argued the runner is entitled to the base, but in passing it up, the runner had achieved that base. 

He's entitled to advance without being played on by the defense.  He still must advance legally.  Once he passed (and stopped trying to reach) the base, he didn't comply with the second ("advance legally") part.

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20 minutes ago, Guest Josh said:

I argued the runner is entitled to the base...

Argued with who?

As @maven, @noumpere and others will point out, a Walk allows the Batter – and any Forced Runners – to advance a base without liability to be put Out. A Walk is technically an (Base) Award, and as with any award of bases, all bases must be touched in proper sequence.

24 minutes ago, Guest Josh said:

but in passing it up, the runner had achieved that base.

Correct on "achievement"; another synonym would be "obtained". I'd be careful about using the term "passing it up" in an explanation.

31 minutes ago, Guest Josh said:

But since he missed, we live.

"We live"... do you mean, "(the ball is still) live" (long "i" sound)? A Walk, or Base-on-Balls is a Live Ball Award. The ball would not be Dead, in this case, unless Time was requested of (and called by) the Umpire(s), or the ball became lodged or went out of play. Just like at 1B, though, if a Fielder makes a proper Live Ball appeal once the Runner has passed the bag (or in this case, the Plate), the Runner should be ruled Out. I've had F3's make a swipe-tag attempt on a BR (and miss, with the BR continuing to run on past the bag), or who received a late throw from an infielder, only to step on the bag, look at me (as BU) and say, "He didn't touch the bag". In those cases where BR truly didn't touch the bag, I've ruled the BR Out.

NFHS (Fed) does have that added wrinkle that appeals can be verbal / vocal appeals during Dead Ball. All it takes is a Fielder and/or Coach to clearly and verbally appeal to the umpire(s). In this scenario you have, all that the entry into the dugout would signify is that the Runner cannot return back to touch the plate, "ever". If we do have a Dead Ball "Walk" award, such as a HBP, pitched ball 4 out of play, or IBB (I've seen it happen, even with bases loaded, just to face the next batter), then we should allow the Runner to rectify his missed touch of the plate until he enters the dugout. Say his ODB or 1BC notices his missed touch, calls or points it out to him, and he goes dashing back to properly touch the plate; we do have to allow this, by Rule. We cannot "coach" the defensive team in addressing this or appealing this, and put the offense at a disadvantage. If the defense says they want to make the ball Live again so as to appeal, and the Runner is standing right there picking up his teammate's bat, I'm not going to say much of anything. However, once he enters the dugout, he is unable to return to touch the plate.

And once he's that distance away, if the defensive team wants to conduct a Dead Ball verbal appeal, I'll accommodate it. If the ball is Live, and a fielder in possession of the ball conducts a Live ball appeal by touching the plate and appealing to the umpire (me), I'll rule on it; as @maven points out, once he's that far away from the missed base (plate), a tag of the runner is not required.

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