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Vegas_Ump

A running start on a Sac Fly

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Using the Little League Book, but I suppose this is pretty universal.

Looking at rule 7.10(a) NOTE - A runner shall be call out ON APPEAL when.....

"A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position back of, and not touching the base...."

Often see this exercise at formal clinics.  I understand that we do have a running violation here, but the question I have is how is it adjudicated?

Do you say/do nothing until the defense makes a correct appeal at the base on the offending runner?

Do you rule as soon as the manager yells at you? "Hey!  He can't do that!"?

Do you call it right away because it's a violation?

Any other variations?

Thanks!

Mike

Las Vegas

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33 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Using the Little League Book, but I suppose this is pretty universal.

Looking at rule 7.10(a) NOTE - A runner shall be call out ON APPEAL when.....

"A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position back of, and not touching the base...."

Often see this exercise at formal clinics.  I understand that we do have a running violation here, but the question I have is how is it adjudicated?

Do you say/do nothing until the defense makes a correct appeal at the base on the offending runner?

Do you rule as soon as the manager yells at you? "Hey!  He can't do that!"?

Do you call it right away because it's a violation?

Any other variations?

Thanks!

Mike

Las Vegas

Like the rule says in OBR and NCAA, it requires a proper appeal. In FED you call the runner out without an appeal. 

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a flying start refers to being off (behind the bag) and running (touching the bag) at the time that you (think you) are legal.....i.e. ball reaching the batter. 

In Little League, you would drop your red runner violation flag and back runners up (as far as you could) to their starting point or unless forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. A runner not in touch with the base at the time the pitch reaches the batter doesn't differentiate "in front of or behind" the base.

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20 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

a flying start refers to being off (behind the bag) and running (touching the bag) at the time that you (think you) are legal.....i.e. ball reaching the batter. 

In Little League, you would drop your red runner violation flag and back runners up (as far as you could) to their starting point or unless forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. A runner not in touch with the base at the time the pitch reaches the batter doesn't differentiate "in front of or behind" the base.

Ooooops!  Not a 7.13 call.  It's a Sac Fly.  (See the Title)

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21 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

a flying start refers to being off (behind the bag) and running (touching the bag) at the time that you (think you) are legal.....i.e. ball reaching the batter. 

In Little League, you would drop your red runner violation flag and back runners up (as far as you could) to their starting point or unless forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. A runner not in touch with the base at the time the pitch reaches the batter doesn't differentiate "in front of or behind" the base.

OOPS - wrong rule.

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Hmmm ... tied to the running bases backwards provisions?  I still maintain the language on those rules is antiquated and needs clarified.  {steps off soapbox}

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R3, fly ball to right. R3 decides to get an advantage, goes up the left field line 20 feet, and starts running toward the plate. He times it perfectly to hit the bag as the ball is caught, propelling him to the dish in a blur. He's safe by three feet as the throw coming in is late. 

Seeing all this, the defense throws the ball to third, and makes the appeal that R3 got a flying start. U3 makes the proper out call. 

 

Question:

In the history of organized baseball, has this EVER happened? 

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Probably, possibly in the early 1900s, which may be why the rule is there. Our resident historian, Senor Azul, may weigh in on this.

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Of course. Coaches think of the darndest things to gain an advantage. Most of them are illegal.

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2019 OBR rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base. Such runner shall be called out on appeal.

I cannot tell you about any specific instance of a runner getting a flying start on a sacrifice fly. I did search online and could not find anything about it. I can, however, tell you something about the rule itself.

The rule actually entered the rule book in 1954 as a case play with just the following text—

“Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.

Back then the rule book had a section at the back of the book called Notes—Case Book—Comment that was intended as a helpful explanation of points not made clear in a rule itself and was considered a part of the Official Rules. In 1978 the case plays were incorporated into the rule book and this case play became 7.10(a) Comment. It wasn’t until 2018 that the last sentence of the current rule was added for clarification.

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47 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

2019 OBR rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base. Such runner shall be called out on appeal.

I cannot tell you about any specific instance of a runner getting a flying start on a sacrifice fly. I did search online and could not find anything about it. I can, however, tell you something about the rule itself.

The rule actually entered the rule book in 1954 as a case play with just the following text—

“Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.

Back then the rule book had a section at the back of the book called Notes—Case Book—Comment that was intended as a helpful explanation of points not made clear in a rule itself and was considered a part of the Official Rules. In 1978 the case plays were incorporated into the rule book and this case play became 7.10(a) Comment. It wasn’t until 2018 that the last sentence of the current rule was added for clarification.

While most of us considered the flying start an appeal play in prior years this is the reason given for amending 5.09(c)(1)Comment: "• Amended Rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment regarding a runner who takes a “flying start” from behind a base when tagging up; namely, such violation is now considered an appeal play."

I always thought it was an appeal play in OBR and NCAA but maybe some did not think it was clear. 
 

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or maybe??????, just maybe?????, that scourge of a third baseman back in the wild wild west days of baseball, John McGraw, who kept grabbing the base runners by the belt on tag ups, forced the runners to go behind the base to get a running lead, so as not to be grabbed. Much easier to grab a stationary target than a moving target as it passes by. Well the legendary Pete Browning loosened his belt one day on a sacrifice fly and left McGraw holding the belt so to speak with Browning holding up his pants with his hand(s) as he ran to the plate. The same Pete Browning that had Bud Hillerich (the son), make a bat (the future Louisville Slugger by Hillerich and Bradsby) for him after he had splintered his original bat, and Hillerich who was at the game, talked to him after the game, to let him make a new bat for him out of white ash (Hillerich father made the famous butter churns in Louisville, but guess what saved the family when butter churns went out of style).

So, maybe the rule had to be made to stop the runners taking a lead behind the bag to escape the clutches of McGraw trying to hold them up in the days of only 1 umpire.

Sorry but all the 1800 numbers i tried to reach for 'live' 'personal' sightings of the above for on field verification of those games and incidents have been disconnected.

A little timeline of some baseball rules although it may not be all inclusive or the why's for the rules.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060615020809/http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/excerpts/rules_chronology2.stm

 

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The playing careers of Pete Browning and John McGraw overlapped only in the years 1891 through 1894 so the events of the anecdote took place at the latest in 1894. I was wondering, Mr. dumbdumb, if you have a theory as to why there was such a huge gap between the shenanigans of 1894 and when the actual rule to prohibit them entered the rule book in 1954?

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