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Guest Chayim Phillips

three batter minimum amateur baseball

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Guest Chayim Phillips

Does anyone know whether the three batter minimum will only apply to professional baseball or will the OBR be written so it also applies to amateur baseball?  

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To my knowledge, this is MLB only.   There aren't enough good pitchers at other levels to make this rule effective.

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OBR is *always* written just for MLB and MiLB.  Other organizations are allowed to borrow it (and have local rules that supersede it).  So, ask your local organizations.

 

Here's the foreword from OBR:

FOREWORD
This code of rules governs the playing of baseball games by professional
teams of Major League Baseball and the leagues that are members of the
National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues.
We recognize that many amateur and non-professional organizations play
their games under professional rules and we are happy to make our rules
available as widely as possible. It is well to remember that specifications as
to fields, equipment, etc., may be modified to meet the needs of each group.
Money fines, long-term suspensions and similar penalties imposed by this
code are not practicable for amateur groups, but officers and umpires of such
organizations should insist on strict observance of all the rules governing the
playing of the game.
Baseball not only has maintained its position as the National Game of the
United States, but also has become an International Game being played in
more than 100 countries. The popularity of the game will grow only so long
as its players, managers, coaches, umpires and administrative officers
respect the discipline of its code of rules.

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At the levels I work, application of the rule would conflict with pitch count limits.

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It depends on what you mean by "amateur"

 

If you include independent ball, then there will be rules most likely, but all of these decisions will come from the board and the leagues. So check with your governing body/superiors to see what is in your organization/area.

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Guest Chayim Phillips
14 hours ago, noumpere said:

OBR is *always* written just for MLB and MiLB.  Other organizations are allowed to borrow it (and have local rules that supersede it).  So, ask your local organizations.

 

Here's the foreword from OBR:

FOREWORD
This code of rules governs the playing of baseball games by professional
teams of Major League Baseball and the leagues that are members of the
National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues.
We recognize that many amateur and non-professional organizations play
their games under professional rules and we are happy to make our rules
available as widely as possible. It is well to remember that specifications as
to fields, equipment, etc., may be modified to meet the needs of each group.
Money fines, long-term suspensions and similar penalties imposed by this
code are not practicable for amateur groups, but officers and umpires of such
organizations should insist on strict observance of all the rules governing the
playing of the game.
Baseball not only has maintained its position as the National Game of the
United States, but also has become an International Game being played in
more than 100 countries. The popularity of the game will grow only so long
as its players, managers, coaches, umpires and administrative officers
respect the discipline of its code of rules.

 

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Guest Chayim Phillips

Some of you are missing our question.  We know that we can decide what rules we want to use and what rules we do not.  What I am trying to find out is if MLB wrote the rule like "three strikes, you're out" or whether they revised it to just apply to professional leagues.  Remember, for 2019 it just applied to Minor League.  If it's part of the baseline for everyone who uses the Official Baseball Rules, we may decide to get with their program.  If it's only for professional leagues, we might look around and see what amateur and recreational baseball are doing with it or we might decide to not use it because it just complicates the day.   

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3 hours ago, Guest Chayim Phillips said:

Some of you are missing our question.  We know that we can decide what rules we want to use and what rules we do not.  What I am trying to find out is if MLB wrote the rule like "three strikes, you're out" or whether they revised it to just apply to professional leagues.  Remember, for 2019 it just applied to Minor League.  If it's part of the baseline for everyone who uses the Official Baseball Rules, we may decide to get with their program.  If it's only for professional leagues, we might look around and see what amateur and recreational baseball are doing with it or we might decide to not use it because it just complicates the day.   

And you're not hearing our answer. Professional baseball includes both major and minor leagues, and sometimes new rules are introduced in the minors. Pro ball (including MLB and the players union) controls all that.

Pro ball, like all major sports, publishes their rules. They don't much care what amateurs do with them, nor do they control that in any fashion, nor do they express any intent concerning which of their rules are suitable for amateur ball.

And if you can't tell whether the "pitch to 3 batters" is as central and definitive of baseball as "3 strikes and yer out," I can't help you with that. :) 

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15 hours ago, LRZ said:

At the levels I work, application of the rule would conflict with pitch count limits.

How's that?

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5 hours ago, Guest Chayim Phillips said:

Some of you are missing our question. 

Let me try to rephrase it, to see if I understand it:

In 2019, the rule read (emphasis added):

(g) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the
batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is
put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put
out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness
which, in the umpire-in-chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for
further play as a pitcher.
For National Association play only, the starting pitcher or any
substitute pitcher is required to pitch to a minimum of three
consecutive batters, including the batter then at bat (or any substitute
batter), until such batters are put out or reach first base,
or until the offensive team is put out, unless the starting pitcher
or substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the
umpire-in-chief’s judgment, incapacitates him from further
play as a pitcher.

Since our league was not a "National Association" league, we did NOT enforce this rule.

How will the book be worded in 2020?

 

Is that it?

 

If so, then:  I Don't think the 2020 books are out yet (but I might be wrong on this), but I can guess that they will NOT replace the first clause of the second paragraph above with "For National Association and Major League play only,..."  Instead they will use the second paragraph without the introductory clause at all (and drop the first paragraph).  So, in a strict reading it applies to all games using OBR.  You will need to include it as one of your "exceptions" if you don't want it to apply.

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In the youth leagues here, I think pitch counts are accumulative, not just for that game. A pitcher comes in and is near his maximum, and throws a lot of pitches (deep counts, foul balls) to one or two batters.

Although I don't work NFHS, I think PIAA has a 100 pitch per calendar day, including doubleheaders, where (as I understand the rule) a pitcher, after pitching in the first game, can come in during the second game, and his pitch count continues from the first game.

But I could be wrong, as I typically don't get involved in pitch counts, letting the coaches deal with that.

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Guest Chayim Phillips

I am not arguing with anything you have said; it's 100 correct.  To put my question in its context, I am the Playing Rules Editor and to a cetain extent control the agenda of our Playing Rules Committee. So ----

(1)  If they amend the Official Baseball Rules to say it applies to "professional leagues only," then if I ask the Committee what they want to do with the rule, what I am doing is asking them is to change what they have been doing all along.   If they say "yes" they want the rule, then I need to go into our written rules and say we have adopted it.  If they say "no" then I need do nothing.   Keep in mind these types of rules are scattered throughout the Official Baseball Rules, like 5.10 (m).  For 2019, this rule said it was only applicable to the Minor League.  With MLB announcing they are going to use it, then the preamble to the rule would say "for professional leagues only" (i.e., Minor and Major League)  unless they make it a baseline rule.

(2)  If the rule is written as a baseline rule applicable to everyone who uses the OBR, then I am asking them "Do you want to change what you have been doing up until now?"  If they say "no" then I have to go into our written rules and say it does not apply and then insert an alternate rule, like in this case the text from 2019 Official Baseball Rules 5.10 (f) and (g).  If they say 'yes," I need do nothing.   In this sense, my example was "three strikes, you're out."  There are some baseline  rules that just do not work for us so this is what we have done with our written rules.

    

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Guest Chayim Phillips

Dear noumpere

If they made it applicable only to Minor and Major League, then where it now says "for National Association only," they would said "For professional leagues only" and keep everything else intact.  That means it would not apply to amateur and recreation ball, unless you went into your local rules and say you have adopted it.

If they made it a baseline rule, then they will strip out everything from 2019 Rule 5.10 (f) and (g ), but where in 2019 it said "for National Association only"  they would keep that, which is the "three batter minimum" rule.  What would be left would apply to everyone  unless you made a conscious decision you do not want to live with it and in your written rules you said this replaces that. 

      

 

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Guest Chayim Phillips

As to pitch counts, of our leagues that use the Official Baseball Rules, one, our adult league, does not use pitch  counts, but our two teenage leagues do.  The Little League Pitch Count is pretty much like what everyone use.  

If your rules say that upon leaving the mound, a pitcher can return to the mound and pitch, then you are governed by the maximum pitch count per day.  All of this "three batter minimum" is pretty much irrelevant.  But then unless you have a lot of pitchers the three batter minimum is pretty much irrelevant because at most you will use and starter and maybe a reliever and that about it.

Where it might make a difference is if you have two games in a day.  If you bring in a pitcher for just 3 or 4 batters and he pitches more than 30 pitches to all of them combined, then he cannot pitch in the second game that day.  see 2019 Little League Pitch Count Regulation VI

 

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43 minutes ago, Guest Chayim Phillips said:

If they made it applicable only to Minor and Major League, then where it now says "for National Association only," they would said "For professional leagues only" and keep everything else intact. That means it would not apply to amateur and recreation ball, unless you went into your local rules and say you have adopted it.

Any rec league I've worked has, usually as their first rule: "Except for any changes listed in these rules, the league will use the Official Baseball Rules published by Major League Baseball" or something similar.

It's not up to MLB, MILB, National Association, or anyone else who publishes the OBR to stipulate exactly which rules in their book are to be used at lower levels. It's the lower levels that decide to use the MLB book, with their own modifications, whether for safety, time constraints, player involvement, or whatever other reason they have. These lower levels could just as easily decide to use the NCAA or NFHS book, or even write their own book.

I think you're thinking too hard on this.

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2 hours ago, Guest Chayim Phillips said:

Dear noumpere

If they made it applicable only to Minor and Major League, then where it now says "for National Association only," they would said "For professional leagues only" and keep everything else intact.  That means it would not apply to amateur and recreation ball, unless you went into your local rules and say you have adopted it.

If they made it a baseline rule, then they will strip out everything from 2019 Rule 5.10 (f) and (g ), but where in 2019 it said "for National Association only"  they would keep that, which is the "three batter minimum" rule.  What would be left would apply to everyone  unless you made a conscious decision you do not want to live with it and in your written rules you said this replaces that. 

      

 

The National  Association IS the minor leagues.

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3 hours ago, Guest Chayim Phillips said:

I am not arguing with anything you have said; it's 100 correct.  To put my question in its context, I am the Playing Rules Editor and to a cetain extent control the agenda of our Playing Rules Committee. So ----

(1)  If they amend the Official Baseball Rules to say it applies to "professional leagues only," then if I ask the Committee what they want to do with the rule, what I am doing is asking them is to change what they have been doing all along.   If they say "yes" they want the rule, then I need to go into our written rules and say we have adopted it.  If they say "no" then I need do nothing.   Keep in mind these types of rules are scattered throughout the Official Baseball Rules, like 5.10 (m).  For 2019, this rule said it was only applicable to the Minor League.  With MLB announcing they are going to use it, then the preamble to the rule would say "for professional leagues only" (i.e., Minor and Major League)  unless they make it a baseline rule.

(2)  If the rule is written as a baseline rule applicable to everyone who uses the OBR, then I am asking them "Do you want to change what you have been doing up until now?"  If they say "no" then I have to go into our written rules and say it does not apply and then insert an alternate rule, like in this case the text from 2019 Official Baseball Rules 5.10 (f) and (g).  If they say 'yes," I need do nothing.   In this sense, my example was "three strikes, you're out."  There are some baseline  rules that just do not work for us so this is what we have done with our written rules.

    

So, if you need it done now, just write the rule in your local rules the way you want it (3-batter minimum or not) -- at the worst it will be redundant and can be removed next year.

Or, wait.

 

 

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A lot of groups have their rules based upon OBR and then add/change their own rules that supersede the OBR. 
I'm guessing bigger organizations like USSSA, TripleCrown, etc...will ammend their rules to not use this.   Smaller organizations with pitch/inning counts will/should too.
For example, USSSA has an innings limit (inning=batter retired) in tournaments based on age level.   if you are close to your max innings pitched and you enter a game as a new pitcher with only 1/3 inning available at the top of the inning by USSSA you can only retire 1 batter before hitting your max innings.   This would contradict the OBR which USSSA is based upon.

It's for speed up rules in OBR and shouldn't be used in games with time limits...especially in youth games.

 

EDIT:   Just looked at 2020 USSSA rules:
7.05.D A Pitcher shall pitch to a batter, until the batter is put out, or reaches 1 st base, or the inning is over, USSSA will NOT be using the MLB mandatory batter limits.

That's what organizations that has OBR as a base ruleset should add in their rules if they don't want to  use it.

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On 2/28/2020 at 5:25 AM, yawetag said:

How's that?

I suppose if batter one fouls off 50 or 60 pitches the minimum three batters rule would create a conflict...

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