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Guest Dave

Tag-up questions

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Guest Dave

Situation 1: R1, no outs. Fly ball hit to deep right field, and R1 tags up and is in between second and third base when the ball is thrown. The ball goes out of play. Is R1 awarded 3B or HP? 

Situation 2: R1 and R3, 1 out. Fly ball, R3 legally tags and scores. R1 leaves early and is called out on appeal, but after R3 crossed the plate. Does the run score? 

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Situation 1: runner is awarded home as it is two bases from the time of the throw when it comes from an OFer

 

Situation 2: the run counts, as the third out is a timing play on appeal, not a force out.

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Guest Dave
18 minutes ago, alex7 said:

Situation 1: runner is awarded home as it is two bases from the time of the throw when it comes from an OFer

 

Situation 2: the run counts, as the third out is a timing play on appeal, not a force out.

I thought the same, but at my clinic today a bunch of experienced guys said it was a force out at second! 

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17 minutes ago, Guest Dave said:

I thought the same, but at my clinic today a bunch of experienced guys said it was a force out at second! 

Both are not even  "I thought" rules. You know the rulings. What was the consensus at the clinic, which was OBR? NCAA? NFHS? Did a bunch of guys that never read a rule book and have repeated one year of experience many times without improving start thumbing through a rule book to find what is not there? 

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Guest Dave
19 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Both are not even  "I thought" rules. You know the rulings. What was the consensus at the clinic, which was OBR? NCAA? NFHS? Did a bunch of guys that never read a rule book and have repeated one year of experience many times without improving start thumbing through a rule book to find what is not there? 

OBR/NFHS

And we are talking 25-year veterans. I brought it up like it was a fact that the run scored and instantly everyone in the group of 10 told me I was wrong... I was bewildered because I was sure the run would score. 

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A force out is when a runner is "forced" to advance due to the actions of the batter.

The batter hit a fly ball that was caught for an out, R1 is not "forced" to advance once the ball is caught.  Tagging R1 or 1st base for the third out is a timing play and occurred after R3 scored. The run counts.

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19 minutes ago, Guest Dave said:

OBR/NFHS

And we are talking 25-year veterans. I brought it up like it was a fact that the run scored and instantly everyone in the group of 10 told me I was wrong... I was bewildered because I was sure the run would score. 

Evidently none of your 25 year vets took the NCAA test  this year, as that was a question this year.  It was also on our NJ high school test this year. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Dave said:

I thought the same, but at my clinic today a bunch of experienced guys said it was a force out at second!

I need to move there so I can move up the ranks quicker! :D

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Guest Dave
7 minutes ago, alex7 said:

I need to move there so I can move up the ranks quicker! :D

Sure, it's the Bay Area. I'm new to the association and I'm not sure if I want to call the assignor because it might turn the veterans against me... Idk

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Guest Dave

Update: I called my assignor (also a longtime umpire) and he thought it was a force as well. Had to read him the rule. Sounds like it's gonna get passed through the association so hopefully the umpires will learn. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Dave said:

Update: I called my assignor (also a longtime umpire) and he thought it was a force as well. Had to read him the rule. Sounds like it's gonna get passed through the association so hopefully the umpires will learn. 

Just tell me this is a rec ball clinic.

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Guest Dave
43 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Just tell me this is a rec ball clinic.

Absolutely not! Our association does everything from LL to American Legion, and we're associated with high school ball. Yeah, idk either how so many umpires didn't know this seemingly-basic rule, which is also clearly spelled out in the definitions section (with the exact example!)

 

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Makes me wonder what other "seemingly basic" rules they don't know!

Not sure if there is another Association in your area but if there is, run, don't walk, there!

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14 hours ago, Guest Dave said:

Absolutely not! Our association does everything from LL to American Legion, and we're associated with high school ball. Yeah, idk either how so many umpires didn't know this seemingly-basic rule, which is also clearly spelled out in the definitions section (with the exact example!)

 

Oh, Dave.  I'm so sorry for you.  Two things I would suggest:  1) Keep your head down and work hard this season - once that rule "gets passed around," a lot of guys are going to remember "hey, isn't that the thing Guest Dave was talking about??  Well, [redacted] THAT guy!"  2) If there's another association you can join, consider it.  Not so much because of #1, but because it sounds like they're ..... not good?

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Do you have a bunch of softball guys in your association?  NFHS Softball actually changed this rule for 2020.  Though a 2020 change doesn’t explain history.

 

 

3438FFB1-9B4C-45E1-91A8-A53D0BA13C94.png
 

 

 

May I take this as an opportunity to preach?
 

Ask questions, learn from those around you.  But always, ALWAYS take time to look it up in the book for yourself.  It will either reaffirm what you were told OR show you the error of trying to umpire from a verbal history of the game instead of the rule book. Either way, you will come out better for having actually opened the book.

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Guest Dave
7 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Do you have a bunch of softball guys in your association?  NFHS Softball actually changed this rule for 2020.  Though a 2020 change doesn’t explain history.

 

 

3438FFB1-9B4C-45E1-91A8-A53D0BA13C94.png
 

 

 

May I take this as an opportunity to preach?
 

Ask questions, learn from those around you.  But always, ALWAYS take time to look it up in the book for yourself.  It will either reaffirm what you were told OR show you the error of trying to umpire from a verbal history of the game instead of the rule book. Either way, you will come out better for having actually opened the book.

@The Man in Bluethat rule says preceding. That means the runner in front. Afaik that has been a rule in all levels of baseball and softball, where no runner can score after the a runner who has made the third out. 

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Yes — sorry I was unclear on the change and why I said that.

The change was made to include tag ups.  Previously it only applied to missed base appeals.

With a change like that, I could see people misinterpreting the previous application of it.  Sorry, didn’t mean to add to the confusion.

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19 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Yes — sorry I was unclear on the change and why I said that.

The change was made to include tag ups.  Previously it only applied to missed base appeals.

With a change like that, I could see people misinterpreting the previous application of it.  Sorry, didn’t mean to add to the confusion.

It's not a change...if anything it might be a clarification...the rule has always been there in baseball and softball....this particular rule just seems to clarify that it pertains to all appeals, not just missed bases...but is still limited to the preceding runner.   Technically speaking, the OBR language would include a tag up appeal...as that runner still failed to touch one of the bases, just in a different manner.

 

From OBR "(3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases"

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On 2/11/2020 at 2:08 PM, Guest Dave said:

@The Man in Bluethat rule says preceding. That means the runner in front. Afaik that has been a rule in all levels of baseball and softball, where no runner can score after the a runner who has made the third out. 

A good rule of thumb to remember is, one from the rubber/two from the field.  I remember FED baseball had situations showing how many bases to award in their rulebook. 

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Wow ... let’s muddy the waters with this 2020 softball rule interpretation from the NFHS ...

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/softball-rules-interpretations-2020/


 

Quote

SITUATION 4: With two outs, R1 on third base and R2 on second base, B5 hits a deep fly ball that is caught by F9. Prior to F9 touching the ball, R1 begins to advance toward home while R2 legally tags and is safe at home on a close play. Once the ball is dead the defense appeals that R1 left early on the caught fly ball. The umpire rules R1 is out and R1’s run nullified but allows R2’s run to count since she touched home plate prior to the appeal being made. RULING: This is an incorrect ruling. Since R1 was ruled out on appeal for the third out of the inning, no run can be scored on this play. (9-1-1 EXCEPTION c)

I’m not sure what they are driving at ... since we started with TWO outs!  :banghead:
 

Edit: NEVER MIND THIS, see below ... But it appears the softball interp with the change/clarification is that a run cannot score on an appeal play for the third out ... it is not a time play (in NFHS softball).

 

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5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Wow ... let’s muddy the waters with this 2020 softball rule interpretation from the NFHS ...

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/softball-rules-interpretations-2020/


 

I’m not sure what they are driving at ... since we started with TWO outs!  :banghead:
 

But it appears the softball interp with the change/clarification is that a run cannot score on an appeal play for the third out ... it is not a time play (in NFHS softball).

 

Ignoring the "number of outs issue"  R1 (who was on Third so should be called R3) was the PRECEDING runner in this play.  So, when R1/R3 made the third out, no runners "behind" her are allowed to score.

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:smachhead:

 

Why the heck am I having such a hard time with this?!  For some reason my reading comprehension goes to pot when the word “preceding” is used (not the word itself, I just quit paying attention to the rest).  I misread it as R3 (R1 in their terms) tagging and R2 not tagging.  Slow down TMIB!

weird science facepalm GIF

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On 2/9/2020 at 8:36 PM, Guest Dave said:

OBR/NFHS

And we are talking 25-year veterans. I brought it up like it was a fact that the run scored and instantly everyone in the group of 10 told me I was wrong... I was bewildered because I was sure the run would score. 

Sometimes Veterans are the worst...
They havent gone to formal training and brushed up on rules for years... yet they try to teach others!!!!

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