NFHS 2020 Rules/ PoE / Baseballs

[lawump]

29 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

The development of a minimum standard deters manufacturers from going above and beyond and developing better, safer products.  

Except that is not what was happening in the real world. 

[lawump]

6 minutes ago, lawump said:

Except that is not what was happening in the real world. 

Being honest, look at the litigation history: Plaintiff's lawyers went after helmets first.  Then, when helmet standards were established, they starting going after bats.  (Hence, BESR and then BBCOR.)  The attorneys for leagues, entities, etc., then had to start asking: "what will the Plaintiff's bar go after next?"  The answer, of course, is baseballs...which lacked detailed standards.  The adoption of NOCSAE standards for baseballs are, without a doubt, in part to head off the next wave of lawsuits.

[Aging_Arbiter]

1 hour ago, lawump said:

Being honest, look at the litigation history: Plaintiff's lawyers went after helmets first.  Then, when helmet standards were established, they starting going after bats.  (Hence, BESR and then BBCOR.)  The attorneys for leagues, entities, etc., then had to start asking: "what will the Plaintiff's bar go after next?"  The answer, of course, is baseballs...which lacked detailed standards.  The adoption of NOCSAE standards for baseballs are, without a doubt, in part to head off the next wave of lawsuits.

Spoken like a true lawyer

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, lawump said:

The manufacturers will do their own testing, of course, but the baseballs will be independently tested by one or two (I can't remember which) independent (university based) labs retained by the NFHS using the standards promulgated by NOCSAE.  I have personally met the professors who run the sports testing labs at these two major research universities.

That is good to know that NFHS is taking those extra steps!  I did not know that.  
 

It is a popular misconception that NOCSAE tests equipment — that’s where my comment was aimed.

[rcjhyman]

9 hours ago, lawump said:

They are now subjected to stringent (scientifically based) testing by an independent organization to ensure that each manufacturer's baseballs comply with the standards for baseballs set by the NFHS.  

NJ umpire here: lawump's quote above is what our interpreter explained to us:  Rather than the balls being safer (although perhaps they may be) the NOCSAE standard re balls is to ensure more performance consistency across manufacturers.

[Thunderheads]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Sorry if I was muddy ... I understood your point and fully agree with your assessment of somebody else’s failed logic.  As I said before, that is a total BS attitude (of the person issuing that ruling).  The entire “It’s just ...” attitude is one that is careless and willfully negligent.

No.  It wasn't my assessment of someone else's failed logic, either.....

It was simply the only reasoning I could come up with as to why Varsity, but NOT JV.  That's all.

[yawetag]

16 hours ago, lawump said:

Being honest, look at the litigation history: Plaintiff's lawyers went after helmets first.  Then, when helmet standards were established, they starting going after bats.  (Hence, BESR and then BBCOR.)  The attorneys for leagues, entities, etc., then had to start asking: "what will the Plaintiff's bar go after next?"  The answer, of course, is baseballs...which lacked detailed standards.  The adoption of NOCSAE standards for baseballs are, without a doubt, in part to head off the next wave of lawsuits.

What's next, once the baseball standard is good? Fencing? Netting? Bases?

[JSam21]

28 minutes ago, yawetag said:

What's next, once the baseball standard is good? Fencing? Netting? Bases?

Yes... I would guess field design/layout when it comes to dugouts.

[scrounge]

21 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Yes... I would guess field design/layout when it comes to dugouts.

Frankly, I'm shocked that schools still have open dugouts 20 feet from home plate like I've seen some schools around here. Just a matter of time.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, yawetag said:

What's next, once the baseball standard is good? Fencing? Netting? Bases?

Bases haven’t been standardized yet, but I can see some room for that given ankle/leg injuries from sliding are notable.  Doesn’t Little League require breakaway bases?

I agree with @scrounge on the dugouts and netting though.  We have some fields around here that really shock me.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

No.  It wasn't my assessment of someone else's failed logic, either.....

It was simply the only reasoning I could come up with as to why Varsity, but NOT JV.  That's all.

We’re good and on the same page.  

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

We’re good and on the same page.  

 ...I just wanted to be perfectly clear where my comment 'came from'  

[ousafe]

31 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Doesn’t Little League require breakaway bases?

Yes

[beerguy55]

On 2/4/2020 at 12:38 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Controversial opinion (not necessarily mine): The development of a minimum standard deters manufacturers from going above and beyond and developing better, safer products.  “This” is what a ball must do, so “this” is what we will make it do.  We could do better, but why sink the additional cost into R&D and manufacturing.

This might be true if there were only one manufacturer.  In a free market, the standard becomes a benchmark against which you market the value and quality of your product, compared to your competitors.   Whether it's how "fresh" your beer is, or how many air bags your car comes with.

Oftentimes it is in a manufacturer's best interests to exceed the safety standards by an economically feasible margin to ensure older unsold inventory can still be moved if and when the standards inevitably shift.

[jkumpire]

Thank your for the information, and here is another question and a few comments.

I went out over the past few days to find balls with the NOXY seal to show the members of my local association what the logo looks like. 

Rawlings, the vendor that makes tournament balls for the state i usually work in, has not made any balls available yet with the state logo and the NOXY seal on them. I did find some Diamond D1's at a local chain sporting goods store and on Ebay for $46/dozen, and a I think a picture from Rawlings on their web site of the "H3" version of their R100 NFHS ball. Both the D1 and Rawlings H3 ball have a small logo on it, which does not match the logo found on the NOXY report on their testing (the Feb. 2018 revision.) So, is the NOXY seal this

or this?

(See bottom of picture). It is possible that the upper logo is supposedly only used on the packaging for the baseballs, but the individual balls I bought today had no seal like this on the wrapping. Does that mean the D1's I got are for "low skill" players, or are last year's models? 

Next question: Is Fed or states mandating which version of the ball is used? Because there are supposedly 3 ball types listed by NOXY; one for "low", one for "medium", and one for "high" skill players. Well, if you look at Rawlings site, (https://www.rawlings.com/product/R100NF.html) it says the R100 NF balls are 89.00 a dozen and they are not available.

Now on this page (https://www.rawlings.com/balls/high-school%2Fcollege/)  you will see there are three models of the R100; the H1, H2, and H3. The H1 lists for 99.95 /dozen, the H2 lists for 84.95/dozen, and the H3 lists for 69.95/dozen. so obviously they are not the same ball, and if you look hard you can see the top of Noxy stamp on all of them. 

I talked to a local AD the other day, and he said last year they paid $86/dozen from this vendor https://www.bsnsports.com/r100-h3-1dz-tpk which lists these balls at 92.99/dozen, and they used a picture of an older ball that is not legal to use in the state I usually work in.

I bring this up because it seems to me this thing is a complete mess at this point. You have on NOXY seal on these balls, which is different than the NOXY seal on every other piece of equipment, and at least with Rawlings, you can by 3 different versions of the same ball, but unless they each have different seams, or quality of leather, or are wound differently, exactly what kind of ball are you getting? Is the H1 for low skill players, or the H3 for high skill players? If you slap a state association logo on it, you could be paying almost $100/dozen for baseballs that are not appropriate for your HS team.

On this page you see the same issue https://www.bsnsports.com/equipment/sports/baseball-softball/balls/high-school-college. Diamond has five different models for sale with various prices, with a different looking NOXY symbol on them, and only 2 of the five are advertised as NFHS/NOCASE. However, the top of the line $105/dozen ball says its a NFHS/NOCASE ball        

It seems to me that this could be and anti-plantiff/money grab by people, and not well organized by someone. I hate to talk like its a conspiracy but the rationale in the documentation seems pretty weak. NOXY sets standards that are more or less already in the rule book, then says to manufacturers in essence, do your testing and label your balls as Low, Medium, or High skilled players. Sell accordingly.

Thanks for reading this and answering my question about the NOXY logo. I'll go back to lurking now.

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

   

 

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

@jkumpire— The NOCSAE stamp and the NFHS stamp are two different things ... both are required.

 

The NOCSAE helmet stamp and the NOCSAE ball stamp are different.  There is not a single NOCSAE stamp for everything.  For example here is the chest protector stamp:

Editing and adding ...

https://nocsae.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1521574690ND02718Stdperfspecfornewyouthbaseballs.pdf

Page 4

Looks as if the only developed stamp is the one for the exterior packaging.  The ball itself is not required to have a “logo” stamp, rather it is required to have the size, weight, and type.  I assume most will say NOCSAE on them in some form, though.

 

[Thunderheads]

Hmmmm ........just asked the state if they're going to require a single source for baseballs, or ... ANY brand of NFHS/NOCSAE labeled/logo'd baseball.

This seems like it could get messsy.

By the way, great discussion everyone!!

[JSam21]

I'm going to be a stickler on the ball stamp... can't see the stamp anymore, going to need a new baseball. Foul balls returned, no stamp, can't use it. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

We were informed last night that in regards to the game balls, PA is now a PLAY and report state.  Apparently, NFHS overruled the state (?).

1- ask for game balls. 

2- If not correct, Ask Visitors.

3- If none available, allow time (not to exceed 20 minutes) for the team to acquire game balls (local sporting good store?)

4- Use available balls and report infraction to chapter after the game

[Thunderheads]

Just now, Aging_Arbiter said:

We were informed last night that in regards to the game balls, PA is now a PLAY and report state.  Apparently, NFHS overruled the state (?).

1

Hmmmm ......  

[wolfe_man]

17 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

We were informed last night that in regards to the game balls, PA is now a PLAY and report state.  Apparently, NFHS overruled the state (?).

1- ask for game balls. 

2- If not correct, Ask Visitors.

3- If none available, allow time (not to exceed 20 minutes) for the team to acquire game balls (local sporting good store?)

4- Use available balls and report infraction to chapter after the game

I strongly suspect OH will also follow suit.   I simply can't believe that we'll take a hard line on this after 3 years of coddling them along.

[maven]

3 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I strongly suspect OH will also follow suit.   I simply can't believe that we'll take a hard line on this after 3 years of coddling them along.

Hm. I'm suspicious that NFHS "made" PA do anything. That's not a thing.

I've emailed Dan to ask whether we're holding the line. He'll have to make a decision soon (local meetings start in a couple weeks).

[wolfe_man]

7 minutes ago, maven said:

Hm. I'm suspicious that NFHS "made" PA do anything. That's not a thing.

I've emailed Dan to ask whether we're holding the line. He'll have to make a decision soon (local meetings start in a couple weeks).

Yes, sir. Our first meeting is Sunday evening in Licking County (Heath, OH).

[The Man in Blue]

21 minutes ago, maven said:

Hm. I'm suspicious that NFHS "made" PA do anything. That's not a thing.

Correct, NFHS can’t make the independent state associations do anything.  They can do things like withhold voting roles, seats on committees, etc.  Consider that more of “strongly recommend”.

I know I’m not the only one, and I know I sound like a broken record ... but willfully instructing umpires to ignore rules passed for safety does not sit right with me.  Repeal the rule or follow it.  You can’t have it both ways.  It does not end well.

Attorney:  Mr. Blue, you are aware that NFHS requires schools to use NOCSAE approved balls for improved safety, correct?
Umpire: Yes, sir.

Attorney:  And was the ball that killed my client’s son a NOCSAE approved baseball?
Umpire: Well, no, but ...

Attorney: And were you the umpire that allowed the game to be played using an unapproved baseball?
Umpire: Well, yes, but ...

Attorney: Thank you.  That’s all.

[Aging_Arbiter]

don't get me wrong, I understand completely and am totally on board with NO PLAY.  But that was the line that we were given last night.