Jump to content
  • 0
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Jake

Third out on abandonment or interference

Question

Guest Jake

Situation 1: Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits ball to second baseman, R1 interferes. R3 already crossed home at time of interference. Is this considered a force out, negating the run?

Situation 2:  Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter-runner abandons attempt to advance to first base on a hit to the outfield. R3 has already scored at TOI. Is this also negating the run because batter is out before reaching first?

Situation 3: Bases loaded, 2 outs. R1 abandons attempt to reach second on a base hit. R3 scores at time of abandonment. Score the run?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

1&2 no run scores. 
1. no runner can advance on interference unless forced. IOW had there been  one out, r3 would go back to 3b even if he touched home before R1 interfered. 
2.  No run can score with 2 outs if the BR doesn’t reach. 
3. I’m  assuming R3 touches home,  R2 3rd, R1 second, BR first, and then BR walks off the field?  Then score the run. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest Jake

@Richvee

"PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

If the umpire declares the batter, batter-runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules. (Definition of Terms (Interference)).

In the event the batter-runner has not reached first base, all runners shall return to the base last occupied at the time of the pitch; provided, however, if during an intervening play at the plate with less than two outs a runner scores, and then the batter-runner is called out for interference outside the three-foot lane, the runner is safe and the run shall count. (Definition of Terms (Interference) Comment)."

Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't it be TOI for situation 1? So if the runner crossed with 1 out, run counts, no? Also, with 2 outs is an interference by R1 between 1B and 2B considered a force out, negating runs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest Jake

I think I misread my last post.

BR didn't reach first so it's TOP.

My bad! 

Let's assume BR did reach first by the time interference occurred. Had R3 crossed the plate also at TOI, would the run score or not? (aka force out or no force out for this situation).

I'm confused because abandonment should be a force out, yet it's not. So, I want to make sure if interference is also a force out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I'm pretty sure R3 hadn't scored at TOI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 hours ago, Guest Jake said:

Situation 1: Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits ball to second baseman, R1 interferes. R3 already crossed home at time of interference. Is this considered a force out, negating the run?

Situation 2:  Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter-runner abandons attempt to advance to first base on a hit to the outfield. R3 has already scored at TOI. Is this also negating the run because batter is out before reaching first?

Situation 3: Bases loaded, 2 outs. R1 abandons attempt to reach second on a base hit. R3 scores at time of abandonment. Score the run?

1. This question is only relevant in FED. In OBR and NCAA, the run would not count because the runner would return to the time of the pitch and thus never score the run. In FED, the runner(s) return to the last base legally reached at the time of interference. So, what the real question becomes is if interference by a forced runner is a force out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
10 hours ago, Matt said:

So, what the real question becomes is if interference by a forced runner is a force out.

Great question. Off to work so no time to look through case plays, though I can't recall ever seeing one like this. I'd side with a force out. Just because I'm not a fan of TOI runner placement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
10 hours ago, Matt said:

. This question is only relevant in FED. In OBR and NCAA, the run would not count because the runner would return to the time of the pitch and thus never score the run. In FED, the runner(s) return to the last base legally reached at the time of interference

One of the unnecessary rules differences, IMO.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Great question. Off to work so no time to look through case plays, though I can't recall ever seeing one like this. I'd side with a force out. Just because I'm not a fan of TOI runner placement. 

Yes, it's a force out. Easy to see why: INT during a force play is a FPSR violation. If the out weren't a force out, then that would not be the case.

The case plays with INT and force plays all seem to be FPSR violations, the penalty for which is always returning runners to TOP (and nullifying run(s)).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest Jake
19 minutes ago, maven said:

Yes, it's a force out. Easy to see why: INT during a force play is a FPSR violation. If the out weren't a force out, then that would not be the case.

The case plays with INT and force plays all seem to be FPSR violations, the penalty for which is always returning runners to TOP (and nullifying run(s)).

Understood! Then why is abandoning when a runner is forced not considered a force out? Ex. R1 heads to the dugout for whatever reason on a batted ball. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
2 hours ago, Guest Jake said:

Understood! Then why is abandoning when a runner is forced not considered a force out? Ex. R1 heads to the dugout for whatever reason on a batted ball. 

A force out is one where the runner was forced too advance due to the batter becoming a runner and is retired before reaching the base he was forced to.

Therefore, the BR can never be forced out, though it looks very similar at first and is essentially the same. If the BR is retired before reaching first on a play the third out is recorded on, no runs can score. So, if the BR abandons his attempt to first for the third out, it doesn't matter what happens, no runs score. Similarly, if the third out is a force out, no runs score.

In your situation, R1 is forced to second and is retired for the third out before reaching the base he was forced to. Thus, no runs would score.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Here’s my (educated?) guess as to why a runner declared out for abandonment is not considered to be a force out—there is another kind of out.

Most of the time it is very obvious which fielder gets credit for a putout—the one who caught the fly ball, or the one who tagged a base, or the one who tagged a batter or runner. But sometimes it is not so obvious where to give credit for a putout when a batter or a runner is called out for a technicality—a rule violation on the part of a batter or runner. OBR rule 9.00, The Official Scorer rule, refers to these technical outs as automatic putouts.

2019 OBR rule 9.09(b) The Official Scorer shall credit an automatic putout to the catcher when a:

(7) batter is called out for refusing to touch first base after receiving a base on balls, after being hit by a pitch or after a catcher’s interference; or

(8) runner is called out for refusing to advance from third base to home plate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest Jake
1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

A force out is one where the runner was forced too advance due to the batter becoming a runner and is retired before reaching the base he was forced to.

Therefore, the BR can never be forced out, though it looks very similar at first and is essentially the same. If the BR is retired before reaching first on a play the third out is recorded on, no runs can score. So, if the BR abandons his attempt to first for the third out, it doesn't matter what happens, no runs score. Similarly, if the third out is a force out, no runs score.

In your situation, R1 is forced to second and is retired for the third out before reaching the base he was forced to. Thus, no runs would score.

@Biscuitthat is what I thought as well. However, I saw a MiLBUM interpretation that says if the run scores before R1 abandons then the runs score. Seems counter-intuitive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest Jake

Also @Biscuitcorrect me if I'm wrong, but I thought OBR makes no mention of abandonment before reaching first base. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

OBR rule 5.05(a)(2) Comment tells us what to do when a batter does not run after an uncaught third strike. I already mentioned rule 9.09(b)(7) which tells us about a batter who does not advance after being awarded first base. Other than that I think you are correct, Jake.

The Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual coined the term desertion to describe the situation where a batter-runner gives up his right to advance to first. Here’s what it says in the 2017 edition of the J/R on page 50—

By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, there may be instances wherein a batter-runner aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) it. This is herein called “desertion.”

 

Both the MiLBUM and the MLBUM state when a runner abandons his advance that it creates a time play not a force. The 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual states (p. 59):  “Umpires must be alert to time-play situations when a runner abandons his effort to touch the next base…”

But it does offer this as well:  “A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s). Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Huh. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would they change the entire way you call it for this one circumstance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

OBR rule 5.05(a)(2) Comment tells us what to do when a batter does not run after an uncaught third strike. I already mentioned rule 9.09(b)(7) which tells us about a batter who does not advance after being awarded first base. Other than that I think you are correct, Jake.

The Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual coined the term desertion to describe the situation where a batter-runner gives up his right to advance to first. Here’s what it says in the 2017 edition of the J/R on page 50—

By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, there may be instances wherein a batter-runner aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) it. This is herein called “desertion.”

 

Both the MiLBUM and the MLBUM state when a runner abandons his advance that it creates a time play not a force. The 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual states (p. 59):  “Umpires must be alert to time-play situations when a runner abandons his effort to touch the next base…”

But it does offer this as well:  “A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s). Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.”

And I think you will find in J/R or your BRD an opinion/interp that the base that was "missed" by the abandoning runner can still be appealed for a fourth out force and negate the run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

And I think you will find in J/R or your BRD an opinion/interp that the base that was "missed" by the abandoning runner can still be appealed for a fourth out force and negate the run.

Agreed -- and that's why the situations are different.  The defense can still negate the rune in the "forced to advance abandonment situation."  But, if the run were allowed to score in the "forced to advance but interferes" situation, the offense could (in theory -- in practice it's pretty unlikely) benefit from it's mistaken and might even interfere on purpose to "prevent" a force out and let the run score.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
12 hours ago, Guest Jake said:

Understood! Then why is abandoning when a runner is forced not considered a force out? Ex. R1 heads to the dugout for whatever reason on a batted ball. 

The FED definition of a force out (2-24-1) is this: "A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing."

Note that a force out is one that the defense records. This definition is extended to include outs that the defense is prevented from recording by INT (such as the FPSR). When the 3rd out is earned by the defense in this fashion, it nullifies any runs scored during play.

It does not include outs that umpires call, for instance for desertion or passing a runner. These outs are "unforced errors" by the offense, and do not nullify runs.

I think this reasoning explains the MLBUM ruling as well: force outs earn nullification. Called outs don't.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

2020 NFHS Case Book 2.32.2 Situation B:  R3 is on third base and R1 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R1 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play. RULING:  Since R1 did not slide directly into second base, R1 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R3 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

2020 NFHS 8.4.2 Situation O:  R1 is on first base. B2 hits a one-hopper to F5 who throws to F4 at second base for the force out of R1. R1 slides illegally into second base. RULING:  R1 is out, as well as B2, because of R1’s interference (illegal slide on force play). The ball is dead immediately and runners return to their bases occupied at the time of the pitch and no runs can score.

2020 NFHS 8.4.2 Situation P:  R3 is on third and R1 is on first with no outs. B3 hits a ground ball to F4 who throws to F6 to force R1. R1 slides illegally, contacts F6 and interference is called by the umpire. RULING: R1 is out. B3 is out, and R3 is returned to third.

Also see case book plays 2.32. Situation D, 8.4.2 Situation D and E. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
4 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

2020 NFHS Case Book 2.32.2 Situation B:  R3 is on third base and R1 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R1 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play. RULING:  Since R1 did not slide directly into second base, R1 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R3 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

2020 NFHS 8.4.2 Situation O:  R1 is on first base. B2 hits a one-hopper to F5 who throws to F4 at second base for the force out of R1. R1 slides illegally into second base. RULING:  R1 is out, as well as B2, because of R1’s interference (illegal slide on force play). The ball is dead immediately and runners return to their bases occupied at the time of the pitch and no runs can score.

2020 NFHS 8.4.2 Situation P:  R3 is on third and R1 is on first with no outs. B3 hits a ground ball to F4 who throws to F6 to force R1. R1 slides illegally, contacts F6 and interference is called by the umpire. RULING: R1 is out. B3 is out, and R3 is returned to third.

Also see case book plays 2.32. Situation D, 8.4.2 Situation D and E. 

None of those are relevant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 1/18/2020 at 5:20 PM, Jimurray said:

And I think you will find in J/R or your BRD an opinion/interp that the base that was "missed" by the abandoning runner can still be appealed for a fourth out force and negate the run.

:ranton:This opens such a ridiculous piece of gamesmanship that  was never intended in the rules or any degree of common sense and fair play, and i think people, including many professional rule makers, are overthinking this.

With two out, bases loaded and a ground ball to shortstop, R1 could just run to the dugout to be called out for abandonment, and then turn the matter of R3's run into a time play...and then open the door to when abandonment occurs, when the runner is actually out...and then if R3 is ruled to have scored before the third out, the defense now needs to know they can actually appeal a "missed" based that was never missed (by rule and definition).

It's stupid.

If a forced runner is put out, IN ANY WAY, before they reached their next base, and they are the third out, the run doesn't count....simple.  It meets the rules, and it meets the spirit of the game.   

Tag the base, tag the runner, runner goes out of the base line, runner abandons, runner interferes, runner gets hit by the batted ball, runner passes a runner (don't ask how)...it doesn't matter...he was forced, and he made the third out before reaching his forced base...run doesn't score.  Simple.  No debate or analysis or thinktank required.

Any other interpretation is someone just trying to lawyer things to death...:rantoff:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...