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ABANDONING BASE


Double Up
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OBR -   BR hits a Fly ball just behind the pitchers mound.    R1  goes 1/3 way to 2b, evaluating the fly ball. 

Fly ball is caught by the pitcher who then drops the ball on the exchange in attempting to rush to throw to 1B. 

We signaled out and that the ball was dropped on the transfer.   The defense then proceeded to throw the ball to 2B, thinking ball was dropped and now they have a force.

At this point there's a bunch on yelling and screaming...  As a result,  the BR stood on 1B and R1 trots off the field towards the 3rd base dugout.   

 

After all was said and done. R1 was called out on abandoning the base. 

 

   

 

 

 

      

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Yes, there's abandonment. It applies to a runner who has touched 1B and "leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base" 5.09(b)(2). FED has the same rule (8-4-2p). The ball remains live, and the runner is out.

Whether your R1 should have been called out is a more complicated issue. If the umpires communicated their ruling adequately, then I suppose they could get 2 outs here (1 for the catch, one for abandonment). But that seems unlikely: had R1 understood that the ball was caught, he would not have abandoned. A BU verbalizing the out call properly would be standing a few feet from R1, who would certainly have heard him yelling "He's OUT! He's OUT! He's STILL OUT!" (after the ball comes out on the transfer).

If the ruling was not communicated properly, then they should put R1 back on 1B.

The probability of the latter ruling being right for any given game is greater than 90%, as a game management point if for no other reason. 

There's also a good chance that the original out call was too fast, and that this was not a catch. That would explain why nobody but the umpires thought it was a catch. But that's just speculation, based on observing a lot of amateur umpires rushing their out calls. 

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Just now, beerguy55 said:

Is there a question or is this a war story?

 

There are two outs on this play.

I guess the question is...  is abandoning the base the accurate call?    I've heard of abandoning on the dropped 3rd.       This is a first for me...  I've never seen a player leave the field of play after they were safe on the base. 

  

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Technically, I suppose.  But I wouldn’t have made that call.

I would have a hard time letting that stand.  While it technically wasn’t an umpire error to correct, there was obviously enough confusion — it wasn’t just the runner that was confused — on your call that R1 thought he was out on the force at second ... and that would be on the umpires.  I’m eating the possibility that my call was unclear and correcting it by putting R1 back on.

You mention the rule set (OBR), but not the age group.  That could be a mitigating factor.

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34 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Technically, I suppose.  But I wouldn’t have made that call.

I would have a hard time letting that stand.  While it technically wasn’t an umpire error to correct, there was obviously enough confusion — it wasn’t just the runner that was confused — on your call that R1 thought he was out on the force at second ... and that would be on the umpires.  I’m eating the possibility that my call was unclear and correcting it by putting R1 back on.

You mention the rule set (OBR), but not the age group.  That could be a mitigating factor.

14U age group.   Thought crossed my mind,  but the calls were clear...   Part of the problem in all of this was that the manage of the hitting team was by himself and did not place a base coach at 1B.     I'm there to call what I see,  not to coach the players.

       

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3 minutes ago, Double Up said:

14U age group.   Thought crossed my mind,  but the calls were clear...   Part of the problem in all of this was that the manage of the hitting team was by himself and did not place a base coach at 1B.     I'm there to call what I see,  not to coach the players.

       

 The OP says both the defense and offense thought the ball was dropped so the call obviously was not clear.

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I suppose that's a matter of opinion.   The offenses manager thought the calls were clear enough.   He didn't even protest the call... and we spoke about it after the following inning.  He tended to agree.

I'm not writing to tell how right or wrong i was in the call,  im writing to understand if there's such thing as "abandonment"  of a base.

 

 

 

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It is a matter of opinion, and I wouldn’t rake you over the coals for it.  I wasn’t there, so I can’t say for sure.  By your description, you had “everybody” yelling, the defense making a play at second base, and the BR standing on first base along with R1 who walked away  ... doesn’t seem very clear to anybody not holding an indicator (meaning just you and your partner).

As a learning moment ... this is an instance when just “Out!” isn’t going to cut it.  This is an instance when I would be loudly specifying “THE BATTER IS OUT!” and probably saying it more than once.

You are right about not being there to coach, and that is why I wouldn’t give you too much flak over this.  But I would implore you to step back and see it through others’ eyes.

Yes, there most certainly is such a thing as abandonment. 5.09(b)(2) in OBR.

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3 hours ago, Double Up said:

I guess the question is...  is abandoning the base the accurate call?    I've heard of abandoning on the dropped 3rd.       This is a first for me...  I've never seen a player leave the field of play after they were safe on the base. 

  

Abandoning the base is an accurate call. Abandoning on a dropped/uncaught 3rd is semantically incorrect. While PBUC covers when a batter is out on a DTK/UTK in their "Abandoning Basepaths"  interp it is not abandonment. 

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3 hours ago, Double Up said:

This is a first for me...  I've never seen a player leave the field of play after they were safe on the base. 

  

This is exactly what the rule addresses, and the most common reason for it happening, even in MLB, is confusion.  The runner leaves the field believing they are out.  And it's not always the umpire's fault.

I've seen runners who were clearly and loudly called "safe" on a play at third base, get up and jog to the dugout, and they would swear on a stack of bibles the umpire said "out".

Weird SH*# happens.

I've also seen runners leave the bases believing there were three out.

Yes, it's abandonment.

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

 The OP says both the defense and offense thought the ball was dropped so the call obviously was not clear.

With the number of games you coached you can't possibly believe that.   Players hear what they hear and don't hear what they don't hear, and how clear or loud it is has nothing to do with it.

Even if they hear it they may not register it.  And then when they see other players behaving in a certain way, they will dismiss what they think they heard and follow the pack.

I've seen too many cases of umpires or coaches being very loud and clear and the player just doesn't "hear" it, for any number of reasons, to blindly assume the ump wasn't clear enough.

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Mr. Double Up, did you and your partner clearly call out R1 on the force play at second base? If you did, then that is correctable umpire error. If there was no reason for R1 to think he was out at second then you have made the right call of abandonment by R1. Here’s what the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (Chapter 2, p. 15) says about your scenario—

An umpire has made a correctable error if…an umpire errantly calls out a runner who walks off the base as a result of the error and is declared out because he is tagged or for abandoning his effort to run the bases.

This means that the umpire clearly calls out the incorrect runner. It is not for when a player misunderstands the call of the umpire, even if that call may seem ambiguous…

However, if the umpire were just to signal and call an out on the play, without specifying which player it pertained to, it is not a correctable situation if the preceding runner were to then step off the base and be tagged out. Players are required to know the rules as well. It is recommended in these situations that the umpire clearly indicate which player is actually out with both signal and voice.

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3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

With the number of games you coached you CAN possibly believe that. 

Fixed it for you.

ALL (key word)  the players were confused.  The yelling started AFTER the throw to 2B.  Coaches start yelling "instantly" if they see the wrong reaction.  Not communicated well.

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Just my country-boy opinion ... that is a terrible interpretation Mr. Wendelstedt.  A poorly made vague and unclear call by an umpire that triggers additional events is no better than an incorrect call that triggers additional events.  Both should be corrected if possible.

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16 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Fixed it for you.

ALL (key word)  the players were confused.  The yelling started AFTER the throw to 2B.  Coaches start yelling "instantly" if they see the wrong reaction.  Not communicated well.

Nope - SOME of the players were confused.  Anything else is an assumption.  You have also assumed that all the yelling came from only the coaches.  And if the coaches knew what the call was, to recognize the players weren't doing the right thing, the call was obviously clear to them.

Players get into a zone...and when they see a ball drop, especially if they drop the ball, they react that way.   They don't care what, or even necessarily hear, what the umpire says.  They probably don't hear their coaches either.  The same thing happens when a very loudly announced IFF drops, and the defense still decides to throw to F3.  They just react to the ball dropping, and everything else goes out the window....including what the umpire just said.

Especially if, possibly in this case, F1 believes he didn't complete the catch - it's not going to matter what the umps say...it probably won't even register...he thinks he dropped the ball, he's going to act like it.

Not to mention, all this yelling and screaming by coaches, players and parents is happening when the ball drops, and is likely happening at the same time the umpires are calling the batter out.   That, too, is not necessarily their fault, nor a reflection of how well they communicated.   That too I have seen too many times, and though  it can be a result of a less assertive or less vocal umpire, I've seen the most effective and boisterous umpires drowned out by excitable coaches and spectators.

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Just my country-boy opinion ... that is a terrible interpretation Mr. Wendelstedt.  A poorly made vague and unclear call by an umpire that triggers additional events is no better than an incorrect call that triggers additional events.  Both should be corrected if possible.

If an umpire makes the correct call, there is nothing to correct.

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16 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Nope - SOME of the players were confused.  Anything else is an assumption.  You have also assumed that all the yelling came from only the coaches.  And if the coaches knew what the call was, to recognize the players weren't doing the right thing, the call was obviously clear to them.

Players get into a zone...and when they see a ball drop, especially if they drop the ball, they react that way.   They don't care what, or even necessarily hear, what the umpire says.  They probably don't hear their coaches either.  The same thing happens when a very loudly announced IFF drops, and the defense still decides to throw to F3.  They just react to the ball dropping, and everything else goes out the window....including what the umpire just said.

Especially if, possibly in this case, F1 believes he didn't complete the catch - it's not going to matter what the umps say...it probably won't even register...he thinks he dropped the ball, he's going to act like it.

Not to mention, all this yelling and screaming by coaches, players and parents is happening when the ball drops, and is likely happening at the same time the umpires are calling the batter out.   That, too, is not necessarily their fault, nor a reflection of how well they communicated.   That too I have seen too many times, and though  it can be a result of a less assertive or less vocal umpire, I've seen the most effective and boisterous umpires drowned out by excitable coaches and spectators.

Runners kept running. Fielders kept after the "wrong" one.  They were ALL confused.

Yelling started AFTER the throw to 2B. 

Stop defending the confusing call.

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2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Runners kept running. Fielders kept after the "wrong" one.  They were ALL confused.

Yelling started AFTER the throw to 2B. 

Stop defending the confusing call.

Not defending anything.  Simply saying there's not enough information here to conclude one way or the other.   Could be bad umping, inattentive players, inexperienced players, or bad coaching, or just a big pile of SH*# happens. 

You're conditioned to blame the umpires when things go sideways.  I've seen too many situations where many, if not all, players on the field miss the loudest most vocal most clear calls from the umps and/or instructions from coaches to jump to any conclusions without actually being present to see this play.

There's not enough information here to make that determination.

 

You do realize that the time from the ball dropping to the player picking it up and throwing it to second is under two seconds, right?   It is very easily conceivable that a deliberate umpire is appropriately not verbalizing the out call by the time the throw is being made.

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5 hours ago, noumpere said:

I'd post something sarcastic about the runner being our for running the bases in reverse, but someone would take it seriously.  ;)

Out of the baseline Blue!  He’s out of the baseline!
 

I think I am go to adopt this “confusing call” stance ... first close play I have at first base I am going to NOT make any call.  The first coach who comes out to me will say “What was the call Blue!?”

I will look at him and say, “Coach, it was obvious he was ... “ and I will draw out that “was” until the coach says ...

”Safe?” OR “Out?”

And I will say “OK, let’s play ball.  Go on, off the field now.”

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