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Guest R. Duke

FED DH Rule Change

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Guest R. Duke

Hope Lawump is out there,  just found out about the DH change.  Jones starts as P/DH then Smith comes

in to pitch.  I know that if someone runs for Jones the DH is dead but Jones has re-entry rights as a starter.

Is Smith allowed to run for Jones or must someone else run as Smith must exit now that  the DH is dead?

Thanks.

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AFAIK, the final draft of the rule has not yet been posted. Here's the announcement on NFHS.org:

Quote

 

3-1-4: Designated Hitter (DH) can be used in two ways. The DH can be listed as the tenth starter replacing one of the other nine players when it is their turn to bat. The other method is that that any one of the starting defensive players can be their own DH (in effect having two positions) within the confines of the rule requirements.

Rationale: This rule change assists coaches with an alternative to keep their better players in the game to contribute to the offensive output of the team and give another player a chance to participate on defense. In addition, considering the pitch count rules, this change would help pitchers to keep their bat in the game, but can come out of the game defensively to protect their arms from overuse.

 

In your example, it sounds as if you're envisioning Jones being P/DH, and then being just DH when Smith comes in to pitch. That sounds as if it would be allowed under the new rule.

Your next statement sounds incorrect: a runner for Jones (now just DH) would simply be a sub who was in the game as DH. Jones could re-enter as DH in his next at bat. With one exception, only a sub could legally run for Jones. Such a substitution would NOT terminate the role of the DH.

The exception is Smith, who occupies the defensive half of the F/DH spot in the lineup. Yes, he may indeed run for Jones, and THAT would terminate the role of the DH, for the same reason as always: if either half of the pairing does the other half's job (fielder plays offense, or hitter plays defense) then the role of the DH is terminated.

And yes, Smith entering on offense puts Jones out of the game, and he may use his reentry. At that point, however Jones would also have to play on defense (though not necessarily pitch, and unless another sub entered or Smith re-entered). These provisions are part of the current rule.

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Guest R. Duke
2 hours ago, Guest R. Duke said:

Hope Lawump is out there,  just found out about the DH change.  Jones starts as P/DH then Smith comes

in to pitch.  I know that if someone runs for Jones the DH is dead but Jones has re-entry rights as a starter.

Is Smith allowed to run for Jones or must someone else run as Smith must exit now that  the DH is dead?

Thanks.

Concerning the new addition to the DH rule: 3-1-4b states that the DH is dead when.............the starting defensive player/DH is 

substituted for either as a hitter or a runner.  My question is whether the def. player now (Smith) may run for Jones.  The 2020

Case Book in not available yet.

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That is not in the current rule. I have not seen the new rule. If your report is correct, then that squares with the stated rationale for the rule change: allow a starter to remain in the game on offense and have a sub take over his defensive role. But if a sub runs or hits for him, then the role of DH is terminated.

Smith is a sub in the lineup in that spot, playing defense. He may run for Jones because it's his lineup spot: basically, at that point he takes over the other role of that lineup spot. That would terminate the DH, and Jones is out of the game. If he has re-entry, he should be able to return to that spot in the lineup and play both roles later in the game (and Smith would be done for the day).

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I wish I had posted that.

Also, note that this is NOT the new rule. It's the press announcement that a new rule is being drafted. The full text of the new rule is (AFAIK) not publicly available yet.

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The NFHS rules on Arbiter haven't been updated to the 2020 rules yet, so I'll side with @maven on this.

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Well, I'm not trying to take sides on anything, just trying to answer the OP's question given the incomplete information to date.

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Guest R. Duke

I have the 2020 NFHS Rules BooK in my hands but the Case Book is unavailable as of yet.  I always like to check the R.B. against C.B. when

there is something new that is this different.  I always come to U.E. when I have questions because of the great respect I have for Maven and

so many others on this site.  Was just hoping that someone had absolute knowledge of this new rule, get the feeling that this will take a while 

yet for everything to shake out.  Again, U.E. is hands down the best..............  Thanks

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1 hour ago, Guest R. Duke said:

Again, U.E. is hands down the best..............  Thanks

Thank you! Please consider registering.

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On 11/7/2019 at 7:40 PM, Guest R. Duke said:
On 11/7/2019 at 4:56 PM, Guest R. Duke said:

 

3-1-4b states that the DH is dead when.............the starting defensive player/DH is 

substituted for either as a hitter or a runner

If this is indeed how the new rule is worded, my thought is what they mean is it terminates the DH only if he is still the defensive player AND DH. IOW,  If Smith has replaced Jones as P, Jones is now only a DH, and he can be pinch hit or run for, and that sub would now be the new DH, with Jones retaining his re entry rights. 
    If Smith, after becoming the pitcher, pinch runs for Jones, then the old DH rule still applies. The DH is terminated, and Jones could re enter for Smith and Smith would be out if the game, and Jones would have to play a defense position. 

IF Jones is still pitching AND DH, and he is pinch run or pinch hit for, the DH is terminated. Jones could re enter, but the sub who pinch ran or hit for him would then be out of the game. ....... I think:shrug:

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10 hours ago, Richvee said:

IF Jones is still pitching AND DH, and he is pinch run or pinch hit for, the DH is terminated. Jones could re enter, but the sub who pinch ran or hit for him would then be out of the game. ....... I think:shrug:

That computes for me. The point of allowing the F/DH (more general than the P/DH) is to ensure that a player can stay in the game on offense when he comes out on defense.

To keep him on defense and sub for him on offense would be odd: just use a regular DH. So that would kill the role.

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"...A designated hitter may be used in one of the two scenarios...: (b) The starting designated hitter may be any one of the starting defensive players.  In this manner, the starting defensive player has two positions: the defensive player and the designated hitter.  The role of the defensive player may be substituted for by any legal substitute.  If the defensive player has been substituted for, the original player/DH may re-enter one time.  The role of the DH is terminated for the remainder of the game when: 1. A substitute or former substitute for the defensive role subsequently participates in an offensive role; or, 2. The starting defensive player/DH is substituted for either as a hitter or a runner."  3-4-1

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"3.1.4 Situation F:  Sanders is listed as the P/DH, hitting in the third position in the batting order.  (a) In the fifth inning, McNeely enters the game as pitcher with Sanders reaching his pitch count ilmit.  Sanders continues as DH for McNeely; (b) in the sixth inning, substitute Jackson enters to pitch replacing McNeely.  Sanders remains the DH for Jackson; and (c) in the seventh inning, Sanders returns to defense as the catcher and is still listed as the DH.  RULING:  Legal in (a), (b) and (c)."

[I will note that in South Carolina, (c) would violate our pitch count rule as our state's pitch count rule states that a player who has appeared in the game as pitcher may not catch.]

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"3.1.4 Situation G:  Kruger is listed as teh RF/DH, hitting third in the batting order.  In the fifth inning, substitute Brodell enters as the right fielder with Kruger still the DH, hitting for Brodell.  RULING:  This is legal."

"3.14 Situation H:  With Dolan listed in the starting lineup as the 2B/DH and batting fourth in the order, the coach wants to bring in Tatelman to hit for Dolan.  RULING:  If substitute Tatelman comes in to hit (or run) for Dolan, the role of the DH is terminated for the game.  If eligible, Dolan may re-enter the game on defense and bat in the same spot in the batting order."

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"3.1.4 Situation I:  In the fourth inning, Montalbo replaces Colgate as the starting P/DH as pitcher.  In the fifth inning, Colgate sprains his ankle as he slides into second base on a double.  Colgate cannot continue and requires a pinch-runner.  RULING:  If an eligible substitute enters the game to pinch-run for Colgate, the rule of the DH is terminated and Colgate is removed from the game.  The coach my substitute another player ,but this will end Montalbo as the pitcher since the substitute enters the game in the batting order already occupied by Montalbo.  However, if the coach has Montalbo pinch-run for Colgate, Montalbo may continue to pitch and hit for himself."

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"3.1.4 Situation J:  In the fourth inning, Federico, who is listed fourth in the batting order as P/DH and hitting fourth, sprains his ankle running the bases and is taken out of the game replaced and (sic) by McGinnis, who later has an at bat.  Later in the six (sic) inning,  Federico re-enters to (a) pinch-hit for McGinnis or (b) play defense for Russel at first base with McGinnis still pitching.  RULING:  Legal in (a); Illegal in (b).  Federico and McGinnis are locked into the same lineup spot and cannot be in the game on defense at the same. time."

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I will add, even though this is not covered by the case plays, a player who starts as a P/DH or C/DH, cannot have a courtesy runner enter the game for them should they reach base.

This is per an email I received from B. Elliot Hopkins on September 8, 2019.  (Of course, check with your own state rules person to see if they are going to follow Mr. Hopkins' email or not.)

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14 minutes ago, lawump said:

I will add, even though this is not covered by the case plays, a player who starts as a P/DH or C/DH, cannot have a courtesy runner enter the game for them should they reach base.

This is per an email I received from B. Elliot Hopkins on September 8, 2019.  (Of course, check with your own state rules person to see if they are going to follow Mr. Hopkins' email or not.)

Even if they are still filling both roles, or only once they have been substituted for on defense?

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Thanks @lawump good info here. I'll have to digest this for a bit...

But for those of us familiar with the NCAA DH rule what are the main differences?

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2 hours ago, lawump said:

"3.1.4 Situation I:  In the fourth inning, Montalbo replaces Colgate as the starting P/DH as pitcher.  In the fifth inning, Colgate sprains his ankle as he slides into second base on a double.  Colgate cannot continue and requires a pinch-runner.  RULING:  If an eligible substitute enters the game to pinch-run for Colgate, the rule of the DH is terminated and Colgate is removed from the game.  The coach my substitute another player ,but this will end Montalbo as the pitcher since the substitute enters the game in the batting order already occupied by Montalbo.  However, if the coach has Montalbo pinch-run for Colgate, Montalbo may continue to pitch and hit for himself."

Have Montalbo pinch-run and then use a Courtesy Runner for Montalbo

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2 hours ago, lawump said:

"3.1.4 Situation F:  Sanders is listed as the P/DH, hitting in the third position in the batting order.  (a) In the fifth inning, McNeely enters the game as pitcher with Sanders reaching his pitch count ilmit.  Sanders continues as DH for McNeely; (b) in the sixth inning, substitute Jackson enters to pitch replacing McNeely.  Sanders remains the DH for Jackson; and (c) in the seventh inning, Sanders returns to defense as the catcher and is still listed as the DH.  RULING:  Legal in (a), (b) and (c)."

 

I'm confused by this one.  At the end of (c) you have (starter) Sanders catching and Jackson pitching -- yet, these players occupy the same spot in the order.  This seems to conflict with 3.1.4J (above)

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On 11/12/2019 at 4:09 PM, noumpere said:

I'm confused by this one.  At the end of (c) you have (starter) Sanders catching and Jackson pitching -- yet, these players occupy the same spot in the order.  This seems to conflict with 3.1.4J (above)

It also leaves an open slot on lineup card where the starting F2 was. I need some help here. 

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