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Coach BIll

Is it time for the orange base?

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I think they badly missed that one last night - but it's such a poorly written rule it's understandable. The orange base would make sense based on the current rules. If they don't add it, then they need to better clarify the rule that will allow a runner to actually run to the base with the line being on the outside edge. The orange base would probably stop a few injuries and sure make 5.09 (a)(11)  far more sensible. What say you?

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Absolutely not. First of all, the play in question was correctly officiated. Call was right, mechanics were right, and penalty was right. Second, the "orange bag" creates so many problems, including increased chance of injury, harder fair/foul calls, a bunch of new rules needing to be made (depending in how they implement it), and also it just looks plain stupid. 

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1 hour ago, Coach BIll said:

I think they badly missed that one last night - but it's such a poorly written rule it's understandable. The orange base would make sense based on the current rules. If they don't add it, then they need to better clarify the rule that will allow a runner to actually run to the base with the line being on the outside edge. The orange base would probably stop a few injuries and sure make 5.09 (a)(11)  far more sensible. What say you?

They didn't miss it. B-R was never in the lane.

How would the orange base help on that play? 

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1 hour ago, Coach BIll said:

He'd have a different different line to run directly to the base. I understand how the rule is written - and it's very poorly written at it's literal sense from an athletic standpoint for the runner. That play was because of a bad throw by the pitcher who was near the mound and no way effected by the runner until he was right at the base straight at it. I think it needs modification. Technically they may have been correct to be able to make that call and I get that. From a playing the game standpoint - the rule could be easily improved. 

I don't find it poorly written. The runner has to be in the lane and not interfere with the fielder tasking the throw at 1B.  What would you do to clear it up?

It isn't hard to get into the lane now.

 

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5 minutes ago, Coach BIll said:

I think they badly missed that one last night - but it's such a poorly written rule it's understandable. The orange base would make sense based on the current rules. If they don't add it, then they need to better clarify the rule that will allow a runner to actually run to the base with the line being on the outside edge. The orange base would probably stop a few injuries and sure make 5.09 (a)(11)  far more sensible. What say you?

Orange base opens up its own set of problems and challenges.

The anecdotal evidence is clear on this - it creates more arguments, more problems, more confusion...and it's unclear if it actually has reduced the chance of collisions and other injuries in rule sets that use them.

As far as safety is concerned...also remember that each base is in itself a hazard, a risk to damaging knees and ankles...all things being equal, bigger base, bigger risk.

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20 minutes ago, Coach BIll said:

I think they badly missed that one last night - but it's such a poorly written rule it's understandable. The orange base would make sense based on the current rules. If they don't add it, then they need to better clarify the rule that will allow a runner to actually run to the base with the line being on the outside edge. The orange base would probably stop a few injuries and sure make 5.09 (a)(11)  far more sensible. What say you?

While the lane is described as 3 feet, the rule considers a runner in the lane if his foot is touching the foul line which adds 3 or 4 inches to the inside of the lane and that 3 or 4 inches actually pass thru the foul side of the bag. Technically a runner does not have to leave the lane to touch that part of the base in the lane.

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51 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

They didn't miss it. B-R was never in the lane.

How would the orange base help on that play? 

He'd have a different different line to run directly to the base. I understand how the rule is written - and it's very poorly written at it's literal sense from an athletic standpoint for the runner. That play was because of a bad throw by the pitcher who was near the mound and no way effected by the runner until he was right at the base straight at it. I think it needs modification. Technically they may have been correct to be able to make that call and I get that. From a playing the game standpoint - the rule could be easily improved. 

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Coach Bill,

    First off, let me thank you for your posts and questions/theories.  Not many coaches would even bother to ask.  Next, PLEASE do not take the following comments the wrong way, as I may be a bit out of line in my personal views.  Umpires receive training on the rule, interpretation of the rule, mechanics and execution of the rules.  The average "layperson/fan" for the most part, has no idea about most of the rules and some of the intricacies. By you asking, and some explanations provided, I (for one) appreciate that you "get that".  Now if every "easily improved rule" thought was provided and acted upon by every fan of the game (I being one), I think the rulebook would be more convoluted as a whole. 

Again, I thank you for your candor and willingness to discuss.

 

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17 minutes ago, Coach BIll said:

He'd have a different different line to run directly to the base. I understand how the rule is written - and it's very poorly written at it's literal sense from an athletic standpoint for the runner. That play was because of a bad throw by the pitcher who was near the mound and no way effected by the runner until he was right at the base straight at it. I think it needs modification. Technically they may have been correct to be able to make that call and I get that. From a playing the game standpoint - the rule could be easily improved. 

The rule isn't about the throw, it's about the catch - that is very clear in the language of the rule.

Turner was inside the line (ie. outside the lane) not for just the final 45 feet, but the entire 90 feet.

He impacted F3's ability to catch the ball...doesn't matter if it's a bad throw.  The rule protects Turner from the bad throw if he's within the three foot lane.

If he had run inside the three foot area the entire time and then his last step was outside to touch the base this would have been a whole lot of nothing.  But that's not what happened.  Yes, if the throw's on target he's out.  And if he's in the lane he's probably out too.  The throw beat him.  The ball was dropped only because Turner hit the glove.

Not to mention that it is very possible to touch the base without leaving the lane.

There are dozens of rules that could have their language cleaned up - if I'm prioritizing editing the rule book, this one probably doesn't crack my top 25.

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3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

I don't find it poorly written. The runner has to be in the lane and not interfere with the fielder tasking the throw at 1B.  What would you do to clear it up?

It isn't hard to get into the lane now.

 

I would change the rule. While it’s not fair to let the runner go out of their way to block a throw, it’s also not fair to ask a right-handed batter to make a detour by crossing the foul line twice when between any other two bases they’d be allowed to run in the shortest path (a straight line).

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22 minutes ago, spark2212 said:

I would change the rule. While it’s not fair to let the runner go out of their way to block a throw, it’s also not fair to ask a right-handed batter to make a detour by crossing the foul line twice when between any other two bases they’d be allowed to run in the shortest path (a straight line).

Well, I guess we shouldn't let the batter over-run first either...after all, if they over-run second and third they don't get a free pass to return to the base...even on force plays.  

Also, keep in mind, they're not subject to RLI at those other bases.

First base is "different", so comparing it to how other bases are treated is counterproductive.  

It's also not fair that the RHB has to run an additional six feet or so to reach first.  Tough.   The opposite side of that is lefties hit more balls to F3 and F4 and have a reduced chance of beating out infield hits.  It is what it is.  It's also not fair that the majority of pitchers are right handed, giving an advantage to left handed batters.  I could go on and on.   Fair's got nothing to do with it.

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Going to live up to my self-proclaimed title ... I’ll agree with you Bill, but a I’m not sure if it is for the reason you are aiming for.

It has nothing to do with the RLI rule, the way it is written, or any interpretation of it.  It is very simple: it provides the batter runner with a very clear path to follow that will keep him out of the way (not always, of course).  If there is no reason for the batter-runner to be in fair territory, it makes the RLI call that much easier.

I'm finding the fear and castigation of the double base to be rather funny.  Very little of what has been said is true, but it is spoken like people who have not had much experience with it ...

wayne's world we fear change GIF

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59 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Going to live up to my self-proclaimed title ... I’ll agree with you Bill, but a I’m not sure if it is for the reason you are aiming for.

It has nothing to do with the RLI rule, the way it is written, or any interpretation of it.  It is very simple: it provides the batter runner with a very clear path to follow that will keep him out of the way (not always, of course).  If there is no reason for the batter-runner to be in fair territory, it makes the RLI call that much easier.

I'm finding the fear and castigation of the double base to be rather funny.  Very little of what has been said is true, but it is spoken like people who have not had much experience with it ...

wayne's world we fear change GIF

I can’t find what your self proclaimed title is, but with codes with a double 1B do they have an RLV rule? 

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Resident Contrarian ... right under my name!  :D

They most certainly do still have RLI (or RLV, whatever you want to call it).  The double first base does NOT preclude or eliminate the runner’s lane.  As I said, it makes the call easier as the batter runner really has NO reason to be out of the lane with a base (the colored portion) that is within the lane.

NFHS baseball does not require the double first base, but they do have rules in their “suggested” section:

 

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Tomato, tomato ... yes that.  I didn’t mean into imply the double first base itself was a suggested rule, just that it is in the (unlabeled) “suggested” section along with speed up rules.

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10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'm finding the fear and castigation of the double base to be rather funny.  Very little of what has been said is true, but it is spoken like people who have not had much experience with it ...

Make sure you're not talking in absolutes on this one...I have as many games playing and coaching rec league and club level fastpitch under my belt as I do baseball.   I've coached club softball games in two countries, five provinces, five states, at least six different rule sets, and three national championships.   

I could write a thesis on the orange bag.

 

10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I can’t find what your self proclaimed title is, but with codes with a double 1B do they have an RLV rule? 

As far as I know all rule sets with an orange bag still have a RLI rule - that's my experience on the softball side...LL was too long ago for me to remember.

 

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23 hours ago, Coach BIll said:

The orange base would probably stop a few injuries...

Show me (us) the numbers of injuries that are occurring at first base at the professional level (Major and Minor) before pulling The Injury Prevention Card out in your argument. Follow that with the injury numbers for College as well.

I believe that the Safety Base is addressed in Fed Rules on a case-by-case basis, due to the selective use of it depending on the facility. Obviously, it’s not compulsory, but you can be sure that if there were measurable injuries due to the absence of the Safety Base, the Fed would mandate it.

The injuries you speak of just aren’t happening.

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Flame away, ...but: 

The only way the 'orange' base would help out is the fact that it would be IN LINE with the running lane, and make it more natural to stay in the lane and make a proper concerted effort to the base when there is an RLI situation

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24 minutes ago, MadMax said:

 

The injuries you speak of just aren’t happening.

More accurately, the injuries, namely the collisions between BR and F3, are happening in both systems, with and without the orange bag, at roughly the same rate.  There's no empirical evidence to show a discernible difference.  

In fact, with all the variants of orange bag rules, and the fact that many rule sets allow the switchover on the fly (ie. F3 takes orange, BR takes white), I would argue this has probably created more collisions.

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:sarcasm:

plus, it wouldn't be aesthetically appealing to the eye.  Someone may mistake if for a discarded Astros jersey............

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NOOOOOOO!  We have the safety bag in Iowa HS ball.  IMOP (as an umpire and coach), it causes way more train wrecks at the bag than it is designed to prevent.  Its implementation had nothing to do with the runner's lane either, nor does it prevent RLI (call it at least twice a year).  I would estimate 95% of RH hitters run to first base illegally, but the interference rarely manifests itself.

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I found it humorous sitting among my non-umpire friends last night with all the comments basically saying, "Well, all of these guys are running outside the running lane (In fair territory) and they're not calling anything. They must have really gotten an ass chewing for that horrible call last night." 

Trying to explain to them that it's nothing if nothing happens is like trying to talk to a brick wall. I decided to just enjoy my beer(s) and the Nats' win.

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8 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

NOOOOOOO!  We have the safety bag in Iowa HS ball.  IMOP (as an umpire and coach), it causes way more train wrecks at the bag than it is designed to prevent.  Its implementation had nothing to do with the runner's lane either, nor does it prevent RLI (call it at least twice a year).  I would estimate 95% of RH hitters run to first base illegally, but the interference rarely manifests itself.

It's the interference that's illegal. Just running outside the lane isn't. Cant make a good turn at 1B if you're in the lane. 

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

It's the interference that's illegal. Just running outside the lane isn't. Cant make a good turn at 1B if you're in the lane. 

Anytime there's a force play on the batter-runner at first base, a play is being made on them; making it required they are inside the RL at 45'.  If they're making a turn.....there's no play being made on them; so they don't have to be in the lane.  If there is a play being made on them and they are running outside the lane after 45', they are running illegally to first base.  A penalty only comes into play when interference occurs during the play.  

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