RLI Game 6

[Umpire in Chief]

The teams are a major factor too. You get a Yankees, Red Socks, Dodgers, Braves and other teams with major nation wide following the ratings will be up. But Houston is the 4th largest city in the country and are a well established team but even in Houston the ratings were lower. Same in DC and both are in the top 10 television markets. There just aren't as many just baseball fans. 

[ArchAngel72]

5 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

they look like the same play to me .........AND NO ...I'm NOT saying the 2019 call was wrong, I believe it was 100% correct ....I'm saying the 2018 call was missed

 

I disagree 

 

the throw from the 2019 ws was by the pitcher within a yard of the base of the mound. And this is exactly where I have issue with 2019's call . 2018 to me was clearer and should have been called the Defensive player has to throw the ball down or nearly down the same path as the runner.  The runner by rule needs to be inside his lane which he was not.

However 2019 the runner I concede was also not in his lane. BUT and this is where this rule rubs me.  The Pitcher fielding the ball at the base of the mound has a MASSIVELY different angle of attack and target to throw to the 1st baseman.  He can see the whole side of the bag as well as the whole body of the 1st baseman. Him throwing it at the front of the bag basically in hopes of causing a runner infraction to me is putting the offence at a disadvantage, why  because the defense in playing the ball is not at the same disadvantage to make a play to get him out.  The catcher standing at the plate throwing that is at a much more disadvantage.

These two comparisons are exactly why I feel the 2019 one is pushing the boundaries of the rule.  I mean should a 3rd baseman throw the ball that pulls the 1st baseman off the bag and in front of the runner do we still call him outside the running lane for that?  I don't think anyone would as the fielder throwing is NOT at a disadvantage in actually completing the throw.

I think it needs to be revamped there becomes a point where the disadvantage to the fielder becomes considerably lessened so maybe there should be a mark on the field to establish where that delineation is.

 

 

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Jim, I am going to respectfully take you to task on this one.

The reason that you don't see this called more often is that you don't have all three criteria necessary to make the call:  runner out of the lane, the reason the play was not complete was solely because the runner WAS out of the lane, and the throw had to be a quality throw.  Most of the time in lower levels of ball, the rule is not enforced because the throws were terrible!  In 33 years, I have seen the call made twice (all Little League baseball, where you would really expect it to happen more often!)  I think the rule is fine!  The education of the players AND the media is what is in order!  [Similar thread on this board above.]

Every time I have seen this play in pro baseball, it has been properly called or no-called correctly by the rules!  I just don't think it needs to be changed!

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

I respectfully disagree.

The only times I ever see this consistently correctly called at the amateur levels is if the throw hits BR squarely in the back, to the potential risk where young catchers are taught to do exactly that when throwing to first. 

Because, otherwise, if he makes a perfect throw (ie. over the runners shoulder to F3), but F3 misses it because he was screened by BR, this isn't going to be called.  "well, the throw got there, F3 should have caught it" - so because umps don't call it unless it's blatant, some players make it blatant - now, thankfully, most players don't have the stomach to do that.

And then conversely, I've seen it incorrectly called where BR is ruled out simply because he ran outside the lane - didn't matter if he beat the throw by a step and F3 caught it cleanly.

It is not understood or called consistently - certainly at the amateur levels, and it appears that way at the pro levels too - if anything, the pro umps are loathe to call it.  They expect the pros to make a clean throw and clean catch.

I think the rule should be changed - but I'd change about 30 other rules before I'd worry about this one.

The rule does work as worded - it just needs to be enforced and administered better.  In my experience, the ensuing call or non call may as well be randomly generated by the same robot calling balls and strikes, because that is the perception it has created over time from game to game, umpire to umpire - the call is random without rhyme or reason - all protected under the guise of "judgment".

19 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I haven't received an acceptable response to why doesn't the runner simply run in the lane that's drawn up for him versus try to change everything. We all know why he's running inside...it's to get hit by the throw. They may never admit it...but that's why they're doing it. 

Yes, they're doing it, but for the opposite reason you're thinking.  They're expecting the thrower to NOT hit them, and to throw it away to avoid hitting the runner.  To some degree it's a dare...I dare you to hit me.   The runner knows he'll probably get called out if he gets hit by the throw...but he is counting on F2/F1 to try to avoid hitting him.   Before the new FPSR's it was the same concept on staying upright running to second when out by 30 feet...he won't hit me, he'll throw around me and throw it away.

[Thunderheads]

5 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I disagree 

 

the throw from the 2019 ws was by the pitcher within a yard of the base of the mound. And this is exactly where I have issue with 2019's call . 2018 to me was clearer and should have been called the Defensive player has to throw the ball down or nearly down the same path as the runner.  The runner by rule needs to be inside his lane which he was not.

However 2019 the runner I concede was also not in his lane. BUT and this is where this rule rubs me.  The Pitcher fielding the ball at the base of the mound has a MASSIVELY different angle of attack and target to throw to the 1st baseman.  He can see the whole side of the bag as well as the whole body of the 1st baseman. Him throwing it at the front of the bag basically in hopes of causing a runner infraction to me is putting the offence at a disadvantage, why  because the defense in playing the ball is not at the same disadvantage to make a play to get him out.  The catcher standing at the plate throwing that is at a much more disadvantage.

These two comparisons are exactly why I feel the 2019 one is pushing the boundaries of the rule.  I mean should a 3rd baseman throw the ball that pulls the 1st baseman off the bag and in front of the runner do we still call him outside the running lane for that?  I don't think anyone would as the fielder throwing is NOT at a disadvantage in actually completing the throw.

I think it needs to be revamped there becomes a point where the disadvantage to the fielder becomes considerably lessened so maybe there should be a mark on the field to establish where that delineation is.

 

 

just to be clear .... I see RLI in both 2018 and 2019 WS calls .......

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, Thunderheads said:

just to be clear .... I see RLI in both 2018 and 2019 WS calls .......

I agree I do too

 

But I see both situations as different due to the angle of attack on the throw from the fielder. Hence why I see 2019 as proving there needs to be some verbage and or boundaries added to the rule and or field possibly to help with when to call this and when not to.

[Richvee]

On 10/30/2019 at 1:37 AM, johnnyg08 said:

 

I forgot dumbass Buck's line from the 2018 play......." And his run down the first base line was completely fine" 

[Richvee]

On 10/29/2019 at 11:48 PM, johnnyg08 said:

 

 

40 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I disagree 

 

the throw from the 2019 ws was by the pitcher within a yard of the base of the mound. And this is exactly where I have issue with 2019's call .  2018 to me was clearer and should have been called the Defensive player has to throw the ball down or nearly down the same path as the runner.  The runner by rule needs to be inside his lane which he was not.

However 2019 the runner I concede was also not in his lane. BUT and this is where this rule rubs me.  The Pitcher fielding the ball at the base of the mound has a MASSIVELY different angle of attack and target to throw to the 1st baseman.  He can see the whole side of the bag as well as the whole body of the 1st baseman. Him throwing it at the front of the bag basically in hopes of causing a runner infraction to me is putting the offence at a disadvantage, why  because the defense in playing the ball is not at the same disadvantage to make a play to get him out.  The catcher standing at the plate throwing that is at a much more disadvantage.

These two comparisons are exactly why I feel the 2019 one is pushing the boundaries of the rule.  I mean should a 3rd baseman throw the ball that pulls the 1st baseman off the bag and in front of the runner do we still call him outside the running lane for that?  I don't think anyone would as the fielder throwing is NOT at a disadvantage in actually completing the throw.

I think it needs to be revamped there becomes a point where the disadvantage to the fielder becomes considerably lessened so maybe there should be a mark on the field to establish where that delineation is.

 

 

Within one yard of the base of the mound??? Look again...He's closer to the foul line than the mound. Seriously, you sound like an exaggerating coach trying to make a point that's irrelevant to the rule anyway. Not much  different than the coach who yells "he beat that out by a full step" when the out call wasn't even that close.  . 

I try to comment more on some other opinions you have in this thread and it just gets snarkier as I write, so I'll refrain from further comment.  

 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I agree I do too

 

But I see both situations as different due to the angle of attack on the throw from the fielder. Hence why I see 2019 as proving there needs to be some verbage and or boundaries added to the rule and or field possibly to help with when to call this and when not to.

 

There is one fatal flaw in your approach AA ... RLI is not about the throw.  It is about the catch.

Personally I’m not understanding what is so difficult about this rule.  Admittedly, I think I may have had some misunderstandings the last time the conversation occurred, but it is pretty darned clear.

Half way down the baseline, the runner needs to get into foul territory.  A right-handed batter has 45 feet to do this.  IF the runner does this, he is protected from a potential interference call INVOLVING a fielder catching the throw.

IF the runner does not do this, or leaves the lane prior to arriving at the bag (last step, yadda yadda), he is at risk of being called for interference with the fielder catching the throw.

Somebody remind me: why is this hard?

[Richvee]

Bottom line for me is...Players should follow the rule if they don't want this called on them But, they're players, and will do anything to gain an advantage. The BS line about a RHB having to veer off the straight path to the bag to get in the lane because he starts in fair territory  is garbage. they're running there to get in the way of the throw. They know it.  Players will do anything to gain an advantage....

Funny how the only time you'll see R1 run  on the infield grass is when there's a GB to F3 ttrying to make a throw to 2B.

Funny how the only time you'll see R3 cross the foul line and run on the infield grass while trying to score is on a GB to F5 or F6. (hey, how about that, he veered off the shortest distance between two points). ...(yes both legal, but still only done when it's advantageous to the runner)

A runner will turn in the same direction as a fielder who just threw the ball when he's in a rundown to try and draw OBS

Funny how the only time you see a player fall over the plate on a swing is when R1's stealing second. 

These guys aren't stupid. They know what they're doing. Turner knew exactly why he was running illegally down to first. He got caught. So, as we do in today's society when we get caught...we blame someone else or challenge the rule. 

[stkjock]

opps

[kylehutson]

27 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Bottom line for me is...Players should follow the rule if they don't want this called on them But, they're players, and will do anything to gain an advantage. The BS line about a RHB having to veer off the straight path to the bag to get in the lane because he starts in fair territory  is garbage. they're running there to get in the way of the throw. They know it.  Players will do anything to gain an advantage....

Funny how the only time you'll see R1 run  on the infield grass is when there's a GB to F3 ttrying to make a throw to 2B.

You're right

Funny how the only time you'll see R3 cross the foul line and run on the infield grass while trying to score is on a GB to F5 or F6. (hey, how about that, he veered off the shortest distance between two points). ...(yes both legal, but still only done when it's advantageous to the runner)

You're right again

A runner will turn in the same direction as a fielder who just threw the ball when he's in a rundown to try and draw OBS

Three for three

Funny how the only time you see a player fall over the plate on a swing is when R1's stealing second. 

90% of the time. If you're watching, there are times players fall over the plate even with nobody on and there's an outside pitch, but your point is still valid

These guys aren't stupid. They know what they're doing. Turner knew exactly why he was running illegally down to first. He got caught. So, as we do in today's society when we get caught...we blame someone else or challenge the rule. 

But... see below

Just to prove a point, I just did a youtube search for "mlb close plays at first base" and this was the first one that looked like what I was looking for: players trying to beat out a throw to first.

 

Watch and see how many right-handed batters enter the running lane on a close play from "not behind them" (hint: none).

[dumbdumb]

8 hours ago, Umpire in Chief said:

 

This is also why I see robo umps as inevitable. Not only for the zone but all facets of umpiring. Umpire's presence on the field will become unnecessary. 

Oh my, even UIC has moved over to the dark side of the force. Never thought he would admit to the inevitable. How long do you think it will take for the inevitable to happen? What levels do you expect the inevitable to move down too. When do you start closing the schools that currently provide resources till the inevitable. How do you be fair to those already in the system rather than string them along at any level that will be affected. Let's get that game plan out there. It is right up your alley.

What are your thoughts on the unravelling of the inevitable? It is okay if you miss on the how when where why, but give us your best analysis.

Volleyball anyone?

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Just to prove a point, I just did a youtube search for "mlb close plays at first base" and this was the first one that looked like what I was looking for: players trying to beat out a throw to first.

 

Watch and see how many right-handed batters enter the running lane on a close play from "not behind them" (hint: none).

Entertaining clip. I see your point. 

[Umpire in Chief]

@dumbdumb starting a new thread for the inevitability of robo umps when I get my thoughts together.

[dumbdumb]

43 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

@dumbdumb starting a new thread for the inevitability of robo umps when I get my thoughts together.

Will be looking forward to it, but will not be able to catch up till Sunday and that's if you have collected your thoughts by then (take your time). Just wanted to hear some thoughts (good or not so good) from a level headed, very intelligent, well spoken and we'll written person.

[andydufresne]

On 10/31/2019 at 2:22 PM, Richvee said:

Funny how the only time you see a player fall over the plate on a swing is when R1's stealing second. 

I agree with everything else you said, but not with the part I quoted above.

I see that happen quite often: R1 only and not stealing, nobody on base, bases loaded.....I see it a lot. 

What I'm seeing a lot of now that I never saw until about five years ago is catchers stepping not directly toward second base when throwing, but into the batter's box instead. You can tell it's being taught because you're right--they aren't stupid, and they know they will get a BI call nearly every time even if they are the one to initiate the contact. 

[johnnyg08]

Retired MLB umpire Tim Tschida discusses the RLI from the World Series and other interesting nuggets

 

[johnnyg08]

What a runner should do to avoid being called out for interference