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Dead ball


Guest Jim
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Question

Runner on 2nd. 1-0 count batter bunts. Umpire behind the plate calls dead ball. Ball bounced and hit batter when she was out of box. Runner runs to first and catcher throws to first. Second basemen is covering and comes of the bag because dead ball is called and throws it to pitcher. Coach appeals to field ump. They decided the ball didn’t hit the batter and called her safe at first. Runner on 2nd advanced to 3rd. If called a dead ball how and what should of happened?

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6 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

The ball was dead. R2 back to second. Batter up with a 1-1 count.

Thanks. These were college umpires making there own rules because they didn’t know them. I thought that was right what you said but wanted to make sure. I see them all the time. They do high school games around here and I am going to tell them nicely. Do you know what rule number that is?

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8 hours ago, Guest Jim said:

Thanks. These were college umpires making there own rules because they didn’t know them. I thought that was right what you said but wanted to make sure. I see them all the time. They do high school games around here and I am going to tell them nicely. Do you know what rule number that is?

Rule 6.95.  As in "Spend $6.95 and buy yourself a rule book."

And, unless you know the umpires / are an umpire I wouldn't approach the umpires.  Have the coach deal with it through the assigner.

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4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Rule 6.95.  As in "Spend $6.95 and buy yourself a rule book."

And, unless you know the umpires / are an umpire I wouldn't approach the umpires.  Have the coach deal with it through the assigner.

You must be an ump. You have that attitude that you are never wrong. I just ask a question and wanted the rule number. Maybe these ump spent the $6.95  but didn’t read it like half the umps out there. And I used to umpire baseball years ago but had to give it up because of my job. I do coach and have approached many umpires on rules before game or while they are at a tournament. The good umpires have never had a problem with the way I approach them about a rule. Thanks for your imput

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15 minutes ago, Guest Jim said:

You must be an ump. You have that attitude that you are never wrong. 

He said nothing of the sort, but think you're having that issue, as you are being told by more-informed people that your method is not proper, and you are insisting it is.

It is not a good idea to seek out officials to discuss their calls outside of official channels.

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25 minutes ago, Guest Jim said:

You must be an ump. You have that attitude that you are never wrong. I just ask a question and wanted the rule number. Maybe these ump spent the $6.95  but didn’t read it like half the umps out there. And I used to umpire baseball years ago but had to give it up because of my job. I do coach and have approached many umpires on rules before game or while they are at a tournament. The good umpires have never had a problem with the way I approach them about a rule. Thanks for your imput

There's no universal rule number, which you should know if you have umpired in the past....there are various rule sets in baseball, and, I'm making a calculated deduction that you are talking about a softball game (girls plus the use of "dead ball"), so again, there are various rule sets in softball.    Not to mention, beyond the national/state rule sets, there may also be governance by either league or tournament rules.

So until it is known what sport and rule set you're addressing it is impossible to tell you a rule number.

And even then, it might not be in the rule book - most of the rule books do not specifically address umpire error for most situations - those would come in instruction manuals, guide books, training courses, association directives, etc, which are also applicable in different ways across different sports and rule sets.....OR, most rule books have a provision for the umpires to use their best judgment for situations that aren't specifically addressed in the rulebook - and at that point it's a judgment call and you're SOL to debate it.

 

If you're truly willing to have a two-way adult conversation with the umpires in question off the field, provided you know them well enough on a personal level to have such a discussion, then perhaps the first thing to do is engage in a discussion and ask them how they came to their ruling?   A very common sense approach could be that the umpires determined that their call of "dead ball" did not impact the outcome of the play (a judgment call, regardless of your opinion of what F4 did and why) and used their discretion to determine "what would have happened".   The rules may allow that.

It happened in MLB a few years ago in the playoffs with Blue Jays/Rangers - catcher's throw back to the pitcher hit the batter and rolled towards third base...R3 took off for home at the same time that the plate umpire was killing the play, at which point F5 let up on trying to get the ball.  They, in the end, ruled that the ball was live, the play should have proceeded, and, most importantly, the umpire's declaration of "time" did not change the outcome of the play - in short, R3 would have scored regardless, so they, correctly, allowed the run to stand.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Guest Jim said:

You must be an ump. You have that attitude that you are never wrong. I just ask a question and wanted the rule number. Maybe these ump spent the $6.95  but didn’t read it like half the umps out there. And I used to umpire baseball years ago but had to give it up because of my job. I do coach and have approached many umpires on rules before game or while they are at a tournament. The good umpires have never had a problem with the way I approach them about a rule. Thanks for your imput

The comment was meant to be directed to the umpires.

And, there's never a good way to fix things when the umpires mess it up.  It's only relatively recently that any books (of those with which I am familiar) even added anything dealing with how to correct some mistakes.

I can see the "proper" answer being "bring BR back" (as suggested above) or ""call BR out but let R2 advance" (the most likely result of the play, as I read it) or "let the play stand" (as the umpires decided) -- all depending on the specific code.

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Going to try to be a little nicer since I’m more fo a softball guy ... :D

To the “helpful” advice from some of our residents ...

College = Likely NCAA

NCAA = book is free to download online

 

To the OP ...

There are correctable mistakes and there are “SOL” mistakes.  The term we commonly use is “you can’t un-ring the bell.”  Example: calling a ball “foul” is a bell.  You can not speculate on what would have happened.  Calling a ball “fair” is correctable because you can “erase” the action that just occurred.  Calling a ball dead is a bell.  It stays dead and should be followed by “Sorry coach, I thought it got her.”

As for college umps not knowing the rules ... I can believe that 110%.  I’m sure I’m going to offend some of the umpires here because they are all consummate professionals calling D1 and professional ball and they never make mistakes.  This is not true for all college ball, but I would venture a considerable chunk ... your college umpires are not solely college umpires, only do a dozen or so college games a year, and have probably never actually opened a NCAA rule book.  They paid $25 to go to the assignor’s “clinic” and listened to war stories for 3 hours.  On top of that, they are the old guys who the assignor always uses even when the teams are telling him they are sick of seeing the same umpires a dozen times.  Guys trying to get in can’t.  But they can keep paying the money to the assignor who will never watch them work.  Firsthand experience as an umpire and a parent who has watched his daughter play (and talked to the officials and coaches) juco and D3 in several states.  The story is all too common.

PS — not an appeal play.  I’m still not sure which side talked to the base umpire (which they should not have done - they should have gone to the umpire who made the call) or why it unfolded like that. Other than, as I said, I understand what the OP means about the umpires themselves.

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Does college softball have the same issue as JuCo and smaller-division baseball, in which the games are early-afternoon when your "better" umpires are still at work and take half a day off a few times a week?

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3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 I’m sure I’m going to offend some of the umpires here because they are all consummate professionals calling D1 and professional ball and they never make mistakes. 

This is my 3rd attempt to write something, and it gets off-track or I start to get snarky, so I'll leave it at this:

You actually had salient points to make in your post.  But I don't much like the general tone of that sentence right there.  That clanged off my ears, as in "SOME of these guys think their SH*# don't stink."  I don't work anything near that level, and I'm sure I DO make mistakes.  But if there are people that are gonna pay me to do it?  Yeah, I'm going to try and act like a professional when I'm out there.

 

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34 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

This is my 3rd attempt to write something, and it gets off-track or I start to get snarky,

 

There’s been a whole lot in this thread that’s clanging off my ears.  I’ve also attempted 2 or 3 posts. Each got more snarky. I gave up. 

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From a couple of posts here, it sounds like HS umpires don't even get any respect here. That's sad, because most of us work really hard and many of us do Dx ball also. If those guys are doing legitimate Fed HS baseball, they should have known better. If they are NCAA umpires and posing as HS and softball umpires, that speaks for itself, but they still should have known better than to blow back a called dead ball. The drunk in the stands in RF knows that.

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On 10/23/2019 at 5:29 PM, HokieUmp said:

This is my 3rd attempt to write something, and it gets off-track or I start to get snarky, so I'll leave it at this:

You actually had salient points to make in your post.  But I don't much like the general tone of that sentence right there.  That clanged off my ears, as in "SOME of these guys think their SH*# don't stink."  I don't work anything near that level, and I'm sure I DO make mistakes.  But if there are people that are gonna pay me to do it?  Yeah, I'm going to try and act like a professional when I'm out there.

 


@HokieUmp you are correct that my tone on that line was backhanded, and I apologize to anybody who I may have offended.  That was not necessarily intended the way you interpreted it — I am the same way.  I don’t care if it is a 10u practice game, I treat all games with the same level of professionalism.  I agree with you 110% there.

My comment was made out of a bit of ongoing frustration with some of the folks here.  Just as you said about my post, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from the community here.  However, I think several of the community leaders don’t realize how their tone comes off to guests, new members, and particularly umpires who work softball and/or lower level baseball.  That or they are deliberately condescending.

Sure enough, it raised its head when a guest challenged college umpires.  My post was completely from my experience and authentic observations, but it was all genuine.  The level you have attained should reflect your status and ability as an umpire.  However in many areas, it is reflective of your longevity or your “friendships”.  It is reflective of the culture (associations, training, or lack thereof).  The guest’s observations were not unfounded, yet he received what is becoming the normal Umpire-Empire derisive greeting.

I really enjoy this forum, but in my short time here I have considered dropping out of it more than once due to this attitude/culture though.  It usually isn’t my style to call out individuals, so yeah, I guess I poked the collective bear a little.

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On 10/23/2019 at 4:29 PM, HokieUmp said:

SOME of these guys think their SH*# don't stink."

Well, if you think that's not true you're not paying attention.

This is an Internet message board...and like all Internet message boards since the mid-90's this one has its standard set of users in standard roles, and fits most of the cliches that most message boards fit - all the way from trolls, to godfathers, to PAG's, to know-it-alls, to sycophants - power mongers, necromancers, novelists, flamers, fanboys...I've seen them all here except perhaps sock puppets.   If you think the Brotherhood of Umpires makes this a different kind of message board, think again.   

You'll see the same behavior on a message board for nuns.

I take it for what it is and am totally pragmatic about it - mainly because I know I fit into one of those roles.

 

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8 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I've seen them all here except perhaps sock puppets.

My cover isn't blown yet. Good to know. :HD:

You're correct, too - this site is no different than any established message board. I still frequent a few other boards for different hobbies of mine and they all have the same group of users. The hardest part is being the new guy on the outside, trying to find your place in the group.

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