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Batter interference / Fan interference


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Question

Hello, 

Two situations last week in a  Pony div. game...   I probably did not enforce either correctly.    OBR rule set for the most part. 

1.     The pitch is thrown and R1 attemtps to steal 2B.    Menawhile the pitch is dropped and roles into the batters box,  where the BR reaches down and picks up the ball. 

         -  I believe the correct call should have been batters interference.   BR is out and no runners advance.

         -  What I did was call the ball dead and returned R1 to 1B (after all,  these where 11yo rec players).

 

1a.   Same situation but what if the dropped ball rolls into the BR,  hitting his shoe

        - In this case,  I would have nothing if the ball contacted the batter, rather than the batter contacting the ball. 

 

2a.  Same as 1., but this time the ball gets away from the catcher and rolls towards a photographer along the backstop who picks up the ball. 

        -  Here I called the ball dead and awarded R1 with 2B on judgement.  

     

 

 

    

 

 

 

 

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Starting with #3 ... what the $#@! is a photographer doing in live ball territory!?

 

OK, I am good with all of your assessments ...

#1 — you know the letter of the law, but I like your discretion.  (Prepare to take flak for this though.)

#2 — you got it.

#3 — sounds reasonable that the runner was going to get there.  Now, get the photographer off the field.

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Starting with #3 ... what the $#@! is a photographer doing in live ball territory!?

 

OK, I am good with all of your assessments ...

#1 — you know the letter of the law, but I like your discretion.  (Prepare to take flak for this though.)

#2 — you got it.

#3 — sounds reasonable that the runner was going to get there.  Now, get the photographer off the field.

1. Best retort:  "It was assistance, not interference."

2. OK

3. Photographer is an authorized person on the field. God rule.

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9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Not your call.

Unless they are tagged with proper credentials they are not allowed on the field during a game.  To me if I see a someone try this crap "TIME!!  get off the field"

If the decline ,

"Coaches, who's parent is this or is this some pedophile ?"  

Course I'm talking LL, there are stipulations for press on the field, if its a properly credentialed press person then Ok stay out of the way and if you get a line drive up side the camera you are responsible not LL, or the town.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Unless they are tagged with proper credentials they are not allowed on the field during a game.  To me if I see a someone try this crap "TIME!!  get off the field"

If the decline ,

"Coaches, who's parent is this or is this some pedophile ?"  

Yeah, I would highly advise against this line. And if I'm the one saying it's too harsh, you know it is.

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3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Unless they are tagged with proper credentials they are not allowed on the field during a game.  To me if I see a someone try this crap "TIME!!  get off the field"

If the decline ,

"Coaches, who's parent is this or is this some pedophile ?"  

Course I'm talking LL, there are stipulations for press on the field, if its a properly credentialed press person then Ok stay out of the way and if you get a line drive up side the camera you are responsible not LL, or the town.

 

 

There is no requirement that it be "a properly credentialed press person". It just has to be a news photographer approved by the home club (and that's not you). 

OBR:

4.07 Security
(a) No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game
except players and coaches in uniform, managers, news photographers
authorized by the home team, umpires, officers of
the law in uniform and watchmen or other employees of the
home Club.

LL

3.15-- No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game except uniformed players, managers and coaches, umpires and news photographers authorized by the league.

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From the 2016 Little League rule book (Operating Policies, p. 191):

“…Only working news photographers and videographers with proper news organization credentials are permitted on the field of play, subject to league approval (as noted in rule 3.15) in any level of Little League Baseball and Softball. Such personnel should never be permitted in dugouts, nor anywhere on fair territory.”

2016 LL Rule 3.15—No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game except uniformed players, managers, and coaches, umpires and news photographers authorized by the league. In case of intentional interference with play by any person authorized to be on the playing field, the ball is dead at the moment of the interference and no runners on base may advance. Should an overthrown ball accidentally touch an authorized person, it will not be considered interference and the ball will remain live.

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16 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 Little League rule book (Operating Policies, p. 191):

“…Only working news photographers and videographers with proper news organization credentials are permitted on the field of play, subject to league approval (as noted in rule 3.15) in any level of Little League Baseball and Softball. Such personnel should never be permitted in dugouts, nor anywhere on fair territory.”

2016 LL Rule 3.15—No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game except uniformed players, managers, and coaches, umpires and news photographers authorized by the league. In case of intentional interference with play by any person authorized to be on the playing field, the ball is dead at the moment of the interference and no runners on base may advance. Should an overthrown ball accidentally touch an authorized person, it will not be considered interference and the ball will remain live.

So what would be the reason that LL would be different than OBR in not ascribing to the "God rule"? Did OBR once read as LL does and when OBR changed LL did not pick up the change as they have missed other OBR rules changes also? Or does LL believe umpires at that level would not have the judgement to judge penalties to nullify the INT?

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14 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Not your call.


As always, we should have prefaced with CHECK YOUR SPECIFIC SANCTIONS.  For the sanctions and levels I work, it is ABSOLUTELY my call.

NFHS

Rule 1 Players, Field and Equipment

SECTION 2 THE FIELD

ART. 8 . . . Media shall be prohibited from being in live-ball area. If a designated media area is to be used, it shall be established before the game begins. The home team or game management shall designate a lined area for the media, which shall be considered dead-ball area.

 

I won’t bore you with softball citations so you don’t have to keep looking down your nose.

 

 

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4 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

"Coaches, who's parent is this or is this some pedophile ?"

I'm not your father, lawyer, mentor, or assigner. I'm just a lowly man who umpires baseball and frequents a message board related to that craft. Take what I'm about to say with however many grains of salt that's worth:

Don't ever say this. Don't ever think this. Don't ever write this out again. Ever.

Oh, and it's "whose".

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2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:


As always, we should have prefaced with CHECK YOUR SPECIFIC SANCTIONS.  For the sanctions and levels I work, it is ABSOLUTELY my call.

NFHS

Rule 1 Players, Field and Equipment

SECTION 2 THE FIELD

ART. 8 . . . Media shall be prohibited from being in live-ball area. If a designated media area is to be used, it shall be established before the game begins. The home team or game management shall designate a lined area for the media, which shall be considered dead-ball area.

 

I won’t bore you with softball citations so you don’t have to keep looking down your nose.

 

 

I don't think it's your call in NFHS if the home venue designates a lined area on the field for media unless you judge the area is not in a safe location or could impinge too much on playing action. 

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Correct.  It is the umpire’s call to approve the area they designate pre-game.
 

I am referring more to the photographer leaving the designated area and actually wandering onto the field and in play.  Been there, done that.  More than once.  With a ladder.

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18 minutes ago, yawetag said:

I'm not your father, lawyer, mentor, or assigner. I'm just a lowly man who umpires baseball and frequents a message board related to that craft. Take what I'm about to say with however many grains of salt that's worth:

Don't ever say this. Don't ever think this. Don't ever write this out again. Ever.

Oh, and it's "whose".

 

 

Wow all you panty waists get your knickers in a bind?

 

Hell NO I would not say that on a field but the statement raises my point.  And further more its up to the league to approve them yes, But if they don't have some credential hanging from their neck or something that states to me this person is approved by the President or AD of the league or district to be on the field for purposes of being there for press reasons then HELL NO they are not staying on the field

 

WHY

 

Because every single volunteer that goes thru LL paperwork gets a background check to make sure we do not have pedophiles running around the kids doing unspeakable things,  Because as a coach or assistant and or official in the league and also to me that includes us as Umpires we are there for the kids, which includes protecting them to the best of our ability from crap like that. So  to me its "Sorry MR photographer you have nothing that shows me you have permission to be here, Kindly exit the field and get me something that states you can be on it. "  If they come back later I will thank them for getting the proper permission and allow them on.  

To be blunt though.  That should never get to my level.  This sort of thing would happen at tourney level or opening day level and it would be handled by the field staff that are milling about. Tourney Dir or AD or Pres of the league.. Etc..

 

PS yes I f'd up Who's vs whose   I hate grandma .. er I mean grammar.  So sue me.

 

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4 hours ago, yawetag said:

I'm not your father, lawyer, mentor, or assigner. I'm just a lowly man who umpires baseball and frequents a message board related to that craft. Take what I'm about to say with however many grains of salt that's worth:

Don't ever say this. Don't ever think this. Don't ever write this out again. Ever.

 

If you're not "thinking" this in a scenario like this you're not doing your job.  You own everything inside the fences, right?  Protecting the kids inside the fences is part of that ownership.   The coaches, TD's and facility managers can own the stuff outside the fences, and they should be thinking the same way.

Every coach, trainer and manager on the fields where you umpire have to go through background checks for that one simple reason...the risk is real, for the same reason pedophiles become priests, they become camp leaders, teachers and coaches...you fish where the fish are (and it's typically easier to become a priest or a coach than a teacher).    Pedophiles look for ways to put themselves where children are...and that can range from posing as (or actually being) a photographer or talent scout, to creating a sport-based charity organization for underprivileged youths.

If he's on the field with a camera and hasn't proven he's allowed to be there, you can absolutely think the worst.   Sure, a fully certified coach could still be a creep, as we've seen many many times, even in recent news at the highest levels...so all you can do is verify they're authorized to be there...if the adult on the field is not authorized to be on the field job one after protecting yourself is protecting the kids.

You're 100% right - he shouldn't "say" anything remotely like he suggested...but he damned well should be thinking it if there's any indication that photographer isn't approved to be there.

That's a sad state to be in, but we're in it.

And, yes, maybe i'm a little more sensitive as I coached girls from age 11 to 18, and so my awareness was heightened if someone was watching our practices...or if there were unknown people on the field, or even in the stands.

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Look I want to apologize for my gruffness in that last post.  I worked with troubled kids when I was in college, everything from runaways to kids who broke and entered and stole, one kid even crushed a house with a wrecking ball.  All those nothing in comparison to the other wing who were all sexual predators.  Kids who offended other kids.  Those stories will make you cry, get mad, and make you think over, and, over why? What makes them that way?

It gave me an education to say the least on what to look for on predators.  Why they are never cured, they will always offend. Its not a matter of "if", its "when" and its based off opportunity.

My wife was abused by her father. I live every day dealing with what he did to her in some way, shape, or form.  I don't EVER want that to happen to any kid, not while I am out there umpiring a game.

I'm not saying this takes up all of my time while doing a game heck no it doesn't but I do watch and look for signs of it within what I can see and check.  Have I had to say anything or do anything, no but I'm aware of it's possibility, and if I can see something and say something that may well avert a disaster then yeah I'm going to.

 

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2 hours ago, yawetag said:

I'm not your father, lawyer, mentor, or assigner. I'm just a lowly man who umpires baseball and frequents a message board related to that craft. Take what I'm about to say with however many grains of salt that's worth:

Don't ever say this. Don't ever think this. Don't ever write this out again. Ever.

Oh, and it's "whose".


On a lighter note ...

Can I use this for my signature @yawetag?

 

We would all do well to remember that first bit of sage wisdom.  Me included.

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15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If you're not "thinking" this in a scenario like this you're not doing your job.  You own everything inside the fences, right?  Protecting the kids inside the fences is part of that ownership.   The coaches, TD's and facility managers can own the stuff outside the fences, and they should be thinking the same way.

If your immediate thought is if a person is a pedophile or not, that's a problem.

I'm not saying it's not in the checklist, but it's MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH farther down the line than the same sentence with "Is this someone's parent?"

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23 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Because every single volunteer that goes thru LL paperwork gets a background check to make sure we do not have pedophiles running around the kids doing unspeakable things, 

Only works if the person is known.   Instances in our area involved people with no priors.

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49 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Only works if the person is known.   Instances in our area involved people with no priors.

Not much you can do if the person has no prior charges/convictions.

You do the background checks and weed out the ones you find.

After that, you just keep your eyes and ears open as much as you can.

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41 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Only works if the person is known.   Instances in our area involved people with no priors.

Yup, you can only go so far and it will never be 100%.  Jerry Sandusky and Larry Nassar had no priors either.  But the fact is you and I are checked for this stuff, and there's a reason for it.

 

6 hours ago, yawetag said:

If your immediate thought is if a person is a pedophile or not, that's a problem

Family/Friend or not?

Authorized or not?

If no to both, (or evasive) then I'm wondering why you're here, and unfortunately, my alert meter goes to Defcon 3.  Yup, I get suspicious when unknown unrelated unacquainted men show up with a camera around children...and yes, I know that's profiling.

It's bad enough when the diddlers are vetted and approved and hiding in plain sight, so I'm assuming the worst sooner than later when they're not vetted or approved...and yes, I know I'm being preachy, and overcautious, and maybe even unreasonable, but without more information I'm questioning their motive (in my head).

 

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59 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Yup, I get suspicious when unknown unrelated unacquainted men show up with a camera around children...and yes, I know that's profiling.

Care to explain why unknown unrelated unacquainted women photographers won't send you to Defcon 3?

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Used to travel a lot on business.  Lots of time with nothing to do.  So, I'd ask the hotel front desk where the closest youth baseball fields were and I'd go down there and walk around and watch the kids play. 

Didn't have a camera/take pictures and I was never asked who I was or why I was there.  Hate to think I was being profiled as a potential child preditor.  :(

 

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16 hours ago, yawetag said:

I'm not saying it's not in the checklist,

Hey @yawetag... isn’t there a word I am known to espouse on this forum rather frequently? 7-letter word? Starts with “C” and ends with “-ontext”?

Your post is in regards to that.

Let’s go back to @Double Up‘s original question and apply this daring concept of Context. 11 year old, Pony division, local baseball. Everything about this shouts “Educational!!!”. So, does an 11 year old neophyte to stealing-bases-baseball know he’s not supposed to pick up an errant pitch, blocked off the catcher (or Umpire), lying at his feet? Little Timmy (our Batter) even knows Cody (our Catcher)! They go to school together! “Here, Cody, lemme get that for you... I mean, just last week, no Runners were on base, and the same thing happened, and I just picked it up and handed it to Jackson (Catcher last week), and no one made a big fuss.”

So yeah, Double-Up, you observed context. Bravo. Tell Timmy he can’t do that, and put the Runner(s) back at their TOP base(s).

And on to 1A, when a deflected ball merely touches the Batter, you’ve got nothing. In all codes. We don’t need an avalanche of citations for that.

Now, on to Situation 2, let’s apply the ever-important context to the photographer. Again, 11 year old, local game. If it truly is local, most everybody knows each other. Granted, we can’t have any or every zealous parent stepping inside the fence to take photos, but if there is a team/league designated photographer (singular), then who am I to prevent them? Surely, if this at the local level, the coaches and parents all know and recognize each other enough that if a pedophile even tried to step inside the fence... well... I’d think somebody would recognize them as up to something nefarious before I the umpire have to address it.

In more advanced and prestigious tournaments, photographers (heck, videographers... with drones, ta boot) have been operating on the fields I’ve been calling the game on. There ain’t no way I’m going to hinder them. The photos and videos they’re taking are paying my game fee! Sure, I might joke with them, and withhold permission (that isn’t mine to give) unless they have a high-visibility vest or shirt on. 

In high school (and yes, onto college ball) the school and/or community will supply a photographer or photojournalist. They will likely be identified by credential, or by a conscientious AD, and we are to treat them as any other allowed-to-be-there personnel. In the Independent Pro Ball League I did this summer, we not only had photographers, but broadcast camera operators. Some were in play, while others were protected. In one instance, the photographer behind 1B took a throw directly to his ~$800 telephoto lens, and the ball ricocheted into his camera bag. Time, ball out of play, 2 bases.

So, Double Up, I’m convinced you handled your situation just fine. I’d question, though, if that backstop is big enough (sounds awfully small), and if that photographer has actually seen a baseball game before. :Cool2:

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