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Blue19

Passed third strike that isnt?

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Runners at 1st and 3rd, 1 out, 3-1 count. Batter swings at ball in dirt, catcher missed ball and it goes to back stop. Batter runners to first base like it was 3rd strike. Both runners advance on play scoring a run. Plate umpire calls ball dead and sends all runners back to their respective bases. Head coach argues that runners should be allowed to advance, at their own risk. Defensive coach argues it was an attempt to deceive the defense.  What do you do, how do you administer it? 

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This is a mistake by the umpire. It's the players responsibility to know the count and the situation.

Run scores. Batter comes back to the plate. 3-2 count.

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16 minutes ago, Blue19 said:

Defensive coach argues it was an attempt to deceive the defense

That's not an argument, merely a true statement.

The argument has a suppressed premise, to the effect that it's illegal to (attempt to) deceive the defense. That premise is false in general, though some instances of deception (such as balks) are prohibited by rule.

No such rule applies here.

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On a passed ball to the fence how is the offense deceiving the defense...sure, the batter ran when he shouldn't, but if the batter didn't run R1 and R3 are still going to attempt to advance on that play.

Regardless, if, for example, the ball had bounced and stay in front of the catcher, with R1 and R3 staying put, and the batter mistakenly ran to first, and then F2 threw the ball away into right fielder, allowing R3 to score and R1 to get to second, the play would stand, with B/R returning with a 3-2 count.

 

The only exception I could possibly think of is if this was premeditated and planned, and the umpire actually heard the coach telling the batter to do this to see if they threw the ball away...and even then, the catcher is supposed to know it's only two strikes and not throw the ball.

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2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The only exception I could possibly think of is if this was premeditated and planned, and the umpire actually heard the coach telling the batter to do this to see if they threw the ball away

That's not even an exception.

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

The only exception I could possibly think of is if this was premeditated and planned, and the umpire actually heard the coach telling the batter to do this to see if they threw the ball away...and even then, the catcher is supposed to know it's only two strikes and not throw the ball.

Nope. No more than a pre-planned stolen base. hit and run., whatever.

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Nope. No more than a pre-planned stolen base. hit and run., whatever.

That would be an interesting signal to give the batter...R3, 1-1 count...coach touches cap, pulls ear, touches nose, touches cap, which means "if you don't hit the ball just run to first and see if the catcher throws the ball away"

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8 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

That would be an interesting signal to give the batter...R3, 1-1 count...coach touches cap, pulls ear, touches nose, touches cap, which means "if you don't hit the ball just run to first and see if the catcher throws the ball away"

Should only work once in a game, and maybe twice in a season. Word gets around.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, hey now - it's not funny anymore.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

That would be an interesting signal to give the batter...R3, 1-1 count...coach touches cap, pulls ear, touches nose, touches cap, which means "if you don't hit the ball just run to first and see if the catcher throws the ball away"

Nah!  More like a yell from the bench "Hey Billy, your grandmother hits better than you". 

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1 hour ago, yawetag said:

Should only work once in a game, and maybe twice in a season. Word gets around.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, hey now - it's not funny anymore.

I thought the way ballplayers think, and The Unwritten Rules and all that, it was:  "Fool me once, and I'm sticking one in the next guy's ear."

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8 hours ago, Blue19 said:

Runners at 1st and 3rd, 1 out, 3-1 count.

@GreyhoundAggie, @noumpere, and @maven have already answered the question, so treat this as supplemental...

What if it had been a 3-2 count instead? With R1 (at least), less than two outs, and a U3K, the Batter is Out because 1B is occupied, is he not?

You’d either be a brand-new, out-of-the-packaging umpire, or a liar if you said you’ve never seen a Batter take off for 1B in that situation, “forgetting” that 1B is occupied, and that he’s already out. In fact, we are taught to say and signal, “He’s out, He’s out, He’s still out.” And that’s regardless of R1, or any other additional Runners advancing! If the Catcher (F2) goes and tries to tag or throw out the BR (who’s already Out, remember), and makes a hash of it, that’s his own darned fault, isn’t it? Batter is still Out, and any other Runners advance at their own peril.

So how is this any different?

Are we to believe that if the defense had tagged out R3 in the fracas, and once everyone got settled down, and someone pointed out that it was only now 2 strikes, that the offense would beseech the umpire – or, the umpire acting on his own – to negate the out and put all Runners and the Batter back to TOP positions?

Really?

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6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

That would be an interesting signal to give the batter...R3, 1-1 count...coach touches cap, pulls ear, touches nose, touches cap, which means "if you don't hit the ball just run to first and see if the catcher throws the ball away"

If I have a batter running to first on strike 2, I’m verbalizing “strike two”. Just like I verbalize “batter’s out” when he runs on a D3K with 1b occupied <2 outs.  

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7 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I thought the way ballplayers think, and The Unwritten Rules and all that, it was:  "Fool me once, and I'm sticking one in the next guy's ear."

Nope. Players get fooled all the time. That's how they get picked off, struck out, etc.

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We pounded that our guys need to know the count every time. Similar play, but ball bounced, B/R takes off, F2 fires the ball to F5 who tags out R2 trying to advance. Offensive coach, wanted a do over, didn't get it. 

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:56 AM, Mister B said:

We pounded that our guys need to know the count every time. Similar play, but ball bounced, B/R takes off, F2 fires the ball to F5 who tags out R2 trying to advance. Offensive coach, wanted a do over, didn't get it. 

 

Nope sorry out is out and your runner advanced at their peril.

 

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Guest D- money

 12u LL. I had a similar situation. 2-2 count , 1st and 2nd , 0 outs. Pitcher threw a slightly high pitch which the catcher missed. I called "Ball", the coach yelled for the batter to run as he thought it was a called strike. Both R1 and R2 advanced as the Batter ran to 1st. The catcher recovered and threw the ball into right field. I'm repeating "Ball, Ball" but the BR turns at 1st towards 2nd and the other runners advanced another base to home and third. How is this handled? I put the runners at 2nd and 3rd for legaly stealing the base, but called the BR out for runners interference for trying for 2nd.

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1 hour ago, Guest D- money said:

 12u LL. I had a similar situation. 2-2 count , 1st and 2nd , 0 outs. Pitcher threw a slightly high pitch which the catcher missed. I called "Ball", the coach yelled for the batter to run as he thought it was a called strike. Both R1 and R2 advanced as the Batter ran to 1st. The catcher recovered and threw the ball into right field. I'm repeating "Ball, Ball" but the BR turns at 1st towards 2nd and the other runners advanced another base to home and third. How is this handled? I put the runners at 2nd and 3rd for legaly stealing the base, but called the BR out for runners interference for trying for 2nd.

I've got a live ball.  I'd let it continue until the ball is back to the pitcher.  Then call time and bring the batter back with a 3-2 count.  Now, if the BR interferes at all with the play by drawing a throw that would otherwise have gone to play either of the runners, I'd call him out for interference.

I had something like this happen in a LL majors game with a 'dropped thir strike' that was strike two.  I also shouted 'strike two' while he and the baserunners were advancing.  I handled it like above.  

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2 hours ago, agdz59 said:

 Now, if the BR interferes at all with the play by drawing a throw that would otherwise have gone to play either of the runners, I'd call him out for interference.

Cite?

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Technique:  Give the count a LOT!

Give the count no later than the third pitch of the at-bat.

Always give the count if the ball were out of play (requested time out, foul ball, etc)

Always give the count with 3 balls and/or two strikes.  The next pitch might be significant.

If all else fails, punish stupidity whenever possible!  Let the runners end up how and where they try to advance.  Then bring the batter back.  But if you had given the count steadily (and loudly), no excuse for the defense or offense to complain.

Mike

Las Vegas

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You all do realize that with less than two outs and 1B occupied, the BR couldn't advance, even if it were strike 3?

Defense should have realized this and prevented any advance of the two runners that (legally) advanced on the wild pitch.

There's no rule that prevents the BR/OC from having a brain fart and there's no rule that protects the defense for having their own.

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13 hours ago, Guest D- money said:

 12u LL. I had a similar situation. 2-2 count , 1st and 2nd , 0 outs. Pitcher threw a slightly high pitch which the catcher missed. I called "Ball", the coach yelled for the batter to run as he thought it was a called strike. Both R1 and R2 advanced as the Batter ran to 1st. The catcher recovered and threw the ball into right field. I'm repeating "Ball, Ball" but the BR turns at 1st towards 2nd and the other runners advanced another base to home and third. How is this handled? I put the runners at 2nd and 3rd for legaly stealing the base, but called the BR out for runners interference for trying for 2nd.

 

12 hours ago, agdz59 said:

I've got a live ball.  I'd let it continue until the ball is back to the pitcher.  Then call time and bring the batter back with a 3-2 count.  Now, if the BR interferes at all with the play by drawing a throw that would otherwise have gone to play either of the runners, I'd call him out for interference.

I had something like this happen in a LL majors game with a 'dropped thir strike' that was strike two.  I also shouted 'strike two' while he and the baserunners were advancing.  I handled it like above.  

Guys - stop making SH*# up.

First - in your scenario, it doesn't matter if it was a ball or strike, the batter can't advance....if it's a strike he's out because first is occupied with less than two out.

Second - the onus is on the defense to know the rule...if the catcher and the rest of the defense is trying to get the batter, that's on them....whether it was a strike (batter out) or if it was ball three.  If you're expecting the batter to know it was a BALL, why wouldn't also expect the defense to also know it's a BALL....and even then, with your shouting BALL, BALL who are you expecting to know it was ball three and not ball four...why wouldn't you expect both teams to know that?

Finally - there is no rule to support calling interference for this scenario.  Both teams screwed up...you can't punish one and reward the other.

R3, run scores, batter returns to 3-2 count, nobody out.

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