Jump to content
udbrky

U3K w/ R3 coming home

Recommended Posts

Had a bit of a third world play the other day. I'm in the field. Fall ball Middle School game, coached by Varsity coaches. 

 

R3, 2 strikes on batter, swings at pitch in the dirt that got away and goes to the backstop.

Batter-runner backs up out of the way. F1 is standing near the cutout in the grass still. Batter-runner starts running to 1B and collides with R3. R3 scores.

 

BR continues going to 1st and runs into F1, who still is no closer to HP than the cutout, is not trying to make a play.

 

What you got?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming F1 doesn't have the ball, it's obstruction.  Type 1 in OBR and NCAA.  Immediate dead ball and the BR is awarded at least first base.  In Fed, there is only one type of obstruction, which is a delayed dead ball.  The BR is awarded at least first base (unless he advances past his award and it put out) once all play has relaxed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, udbrky said:

Had a bit of a third world play the other day. I'm in the field. Fall ball Middle School game, coached by Varsity coaches. 

 

R3, 2 strikes on batter, swings at pitch in the dirt that got away and goes to the backstop.

Batter-runner backs up out of the way. F1 is standing near the cutout in the grass still. Batter-runner starts running to 1B and collides with R3. R3 scores.

 

BR continues going to 1st and runs into F1, who still is no closer to HP than the cutout, is not trying to make a play.

 

What you got?

I've got my eyes wondering where the ball is.  From your description I've got F1 not on the line or in the running lane.  Is that right?  Can't call anything until I know where the ball is when they collided and what happened after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I've got my eyes wondering where the ball is.  From your description I've got F1 not on the line or in the running lane.  Is that right?  Can't call anything until I know where the ball is when they collided and what happened after.

Why do we have to know where the ball is other than not in F1’s glove?  BR has no obligation to be be in the running lane first half of the way to 1B. If F1 is standing there without the ball and BR runs into him, ......clear cut obstruction. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Why do we have to know where the ball is other than not in F1’s glove?  BR has no obligation to be be in the running lane first half of the way to 1B. If F1 is standing there without the ball and BR runs into him, ......clear cut obstruction. 

Because he didn't tell us 1) the ball wasn't in F1's glove and 2) where F1 was in relation to the base path of the runner.  I don't know if there is a throw that F1 is trying to catch that puts him in BR's way (play on) or if BR stumbled or veered off the base path and collided with F1 (no obstruction there).  Tell me those things, and I'll be happy to tell you what I got.  If it's as you describe, sure, I got obstruction.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Richvee said:

Why do we have to know where the ball is other than not in F1’s glove?  BR has no obligation to be be in the running lane first half of the way to 1B. If F1 is standing there without the ball and BR runs into him, ......clear cut obstruction. 

Rich I'm with you.  The first thing that came to my mind was a three-foot lane interference situation.  But since all the "physics" happened prior to the beginning of the three-foot lane, BR is legally trying to advance, albeit his starting point may have become zany because he backed out of the box on the U3K to allow R3 to score.  

IMO, the collision between the BR and R3 is nothing but high comedy.  So that leaves us with the BR's attempted advance, F2 trying to find the ball, and F3 obstructing the BR.  I suppose you have to consider the timing of some events:  If F2 doesn't have the ball, it's Type B.  If F2 does have the ball and is cranking up for a throw to whomever is covering 1B, you might rule Type A with the special case that it's the BR obstructed before reaching first base.  I think the outcomes are the same, but A kills the ball, and B does not.

Mike

Sin City

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Because he didn't tell us 1) the ball wasn't in F1's glove and 2) where F1 was in relation to the base path of the runner.  I don't know if there is a throw that F1 is trying to catch that puts him in BR's way (play on) or if BR stumbled or veered off the base path and collided with F1 (no obstruction there).  Tell me those things, and I'll be happy to tell you what I got.  If it's as you describe, sure, I got obstruction.

Why would F1 be fielding a throw to 1B?

This is always going to be OBS. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Rich I'm with you.  The first thing that came to my mind was a three-foot lane interference situation.  But since all the "physics" happened prior to the beginning of the three-foot lane, BR is legally trying to advance, albeit his starting point may have become zany because he backed out of the box on the U3K to allow R3 to score.  

IMO, the collision between the BR and R3 is nothing but high comedy.  So that leaves us with the BR's attempted advance, F2 trying to find the ball, and F3 obstructing the BR.  I suppose you have to consider the timing of some events:  If F2 doesn't have the ball, it's Type B.  If F2 does have the ball and is cranking up for a throw to whomever is covering 1B, you might rule Type A with the special case that it's the BR obstructed before reaching first base.  I think the outcomes are the same, but A kills the ball, and B does not.

Mike

Sin City

By interpretation in NCAA and OBR, OBS on a BR before reaching first with a ball in the infield is always type 1. No need to worry about timing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Richvee said:

Why do we have to know where the ball is other than not in F1’s glove?  BR has no obligation to be be in the running lane first half of the way to 1B. If F1 is standing there without the ball and BR runs into him, ......clear cut obstruction. 

I know this is the letter of the rule,

:ranton:but come on...the pitcher is on the grass and nowhere near where a base runner's "reasonable" base path to first would be.   The Batter first steps back several steps, forgetting he needs to run...changing his angle to first...then, he collides with R3, changing his angle again...how is the pitcher, who is nowhere near the baseline, to be expected to avoid a base runner who is running on the infield grass between the mound and the line, to react to a base runner's arbitrary and/or nonsensical route to first base - intentional or not.

At some point the base runner has to have some culpability...otherwise if I hit an easy ground ball to third I'm just running straight to wherever the pitcher is - after all, the runner chooses his path.

I get it, by letter of the rule it's obstruction, but is there no discretion here?  I'm at least hoping if you determine the runner intentionally created the obstruction you can do something (not saying there is intent here, asking hypothetically).:rantoff:

Ultimately I know this is just a big SH*# happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I know this is the letter of the rule

Ultimately I know this is just a big SH*# happens.

FIFY

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I know this is the letter of the rule,

:ranton:but come on...the pitcher is on the grass and nowhere near where a base runner's "reasonable" base path to first would be.   The Batter first steps back several steps, forgetting he needs to run...changing his angle to first...then, he collides with R3, changing his angle again...how is the pitcher, who is nowhere near the baseline, to be expected to avoid a base runner who is running on the infield grass between the mound and the line, to react to a base runner's arbitrary and/or nonsensical route to first base - intentional or not.

At some point the base runner has to have some culpability...otherwise if I hit an easy ground ball to third I'm just running straight to wherever the pitcher is - after all, the runner chooses his path.

I get it, by letter of the rule it's obstruction, but is there no discretion here?  I'm at least hoping if you determine the runner intentionally created the obstruction you can do something (not saying there is intent here, asking hypothetically).:rantoff:

Ultimately I know this is just a big SH*# happens.

That's the thing...there has to be intent on the part of the runner for this not to be OBS. (FWIW, this is contrary to the letter of the rule and was not fully cleared up until about 15 years ago.) It's really not that hard to avoid a lumbering idiot (my collision in the state HS tournament two years ago notwithstanding.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 the collision between the BR and R3 is nothing but high comedy

Oh yeah, that pure sharing what I just saw.

Quote

I don't know if there is a throw that F1 is trying to catch that puts him in BR's way (play on)

I thought that was implied when I said that F1 was not trying to make a play at all, just standing there.

Quote

BR stumbled or veered off the base path

BR had completely regained his composure and was in full control of himself running to 1B.

 

The coach was yelling at the catcher for not just picking up the ball and throwing it to 1B, which would have negated all of this, because that should have happened before this trainwreck occurred. TBH, I'm probably following the ball and picking up the touch of 1B and not seeing any of that happen normally. But, since I have absolutely nothing to do at this point, I do. I called the OBS. BR beat the throw anyways, so I didn't even have to really come close to the **** end of the stick on this one. 

 

I think if the catcher comes up and throws around the time that the collisions happen, I'm not calling it. The kid had barely made an attempt to advance at that point, and is 85 feet from 1B. 

Probably the most interesting play I'd had in a while. I had even gone about a month without having obstruction, and got it twice in that game and again the next day. Gotta love fall ball!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the 2016 BRD (section 454, p. 301):

FED:  When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2)

NCAA/OBR: Same as FED.

From everybody’s favorite manual, the 2017 Jaksa/Roder (p. 126):

"However, it is not obstruction if…a runner intentionally alters his course to contact a fielder who is not protected."

In other words, a runner cannot initiate an avoidable collision with the fielder—he must show by his actions and positioning that his intent is to reach and stay on a base safely.

Mr. udbrky said the following earlier—“I think if the catcher comes up and throws around the time that the collisions happen, I'm not calling it. The kid had barely made an attempt to advance at that point, and is 85 feet from 1B.”

Mr. Matt has already told us that in NCAA/OBR it is an immediate dead ball when a batter-runner is obstructed before he reaches first base. It does not matter where that obstruction occurs—by rule (6.01h-1 in OBR; NCAA 6-3d) you don’t have a choice to ignore it.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve got one clumsy @$$ runner is what I’ve got.  If he made it to first, then I have an obstruction that is nothing.

MS ball ... assuming you mean actual school ball is played under NFHS.  There is no Type 1/Type 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2019 at 10:14 PM, agdz59 said:

Because he didn't tell us 1) the ball wasn't in F1's glove and 2) where F1 was in relation to the base path of the runner.  I don't know if there is a throw that F1 is trying to catch that puts him in BR's way (play on) or if BR stumbled or veered off the base path and collided with F1 (no obstruction there).  Tell me those things, and I'll be happy to tell you what I got.  If it's as you describe, sure, I got obstruction.

1  he told us F1 wasn’t making a play

2.  Where F1 is in relation the the basepath isn’t s factor, because as we all know a runner can make his own basepath until a play is being made on him. Unless, of course, he veers off course to intentionally contact F1  

. All this info is indeed in the OP  

 

On 9/23/2019 at 5:46 PM, udbrky said:

 

BR continues going to 1st and runs into F1, who still is no closer to HP than the cutout, is not trying to make a play.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...